Why is it necessary to live with a spouse

christine dubois said:
The term "arranged marriage" is a very merciful, we use mostly "forced marriages".
The point is that two young people (man and woman) are promised and forced to marry each other. Many times the loss of their friends and a move (many cases an abduction) is the consequence. But there is another pressure, more subtle; as you've said already , cousin marries cousin, what means that her family is also his family. If you risk now to divorce, you lose the whole family, you are a betrayer, you defile the family honour.
Not to mention that around 100 000 people (nearly 100% women) get killed by their brothers or fathers, if the daughter/sister is not willing to marry or tries to divorce

It's mainly practiced is islamic countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Irak..), but also Turkey, Albania,some Greek regions and Asia. But we also have in Germany some cases where brothers dashed their sister with benzin and burned her alive in the middle of the street.
But let's just to understand the normal situation. For me, as a woman, the imagination that you have to have sex and kids with a man, you don't love, is like a daily, weekly or monthly rape, with a big torture at the end. The reason, why many women commit suicide.

Of course there is a possibility that your parents make a good decision and let's take it that 100% of the parents are acting in a good will, but they are also enmeshed in their family bonds..

you are talking about your country..I assume you are talking about an african country..which one is it? Are you from Senegal?
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Er.. Naija is from Nigeria, which is why he calls himself "naija".
 
The Dark Knight said:
Dude you can have a school that's failing in literacy and attribute it to a litany of reasons such as poverty, abuse, poor teaching, inadequate teaching facilities, lack of motivation etc. One wouldn't ignore the fact that even though there may be multiple to reasons to the education system not living up to a higher performance that it isn't working. That its ineffective and should be changed not done away with but perhaps changed.
That was a rather spot analogy my friend. Two institutions that are mandated by law and human interaction.
Whatever the reason as to why it isn't working doesn't take away from the tangible and ever present fact that it isn't working as a whole. It may be working for some but much like those kids who are fortunate enough to get a bid to a charter school and get a good education doesn't mean the system isn't broken as a whole.
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well stated, but even 1/5 of the charter schools arent up to snuff. they are just as bad as the regulare schools as stated on CNN
 
What you wrote, and what I highlighted, I concur with, wholeheartedly. People should be allowed to live with the consequences of their own decisions, not that of others, especially in areas of life where they have that choice.

I have always supported the notion that two consenting adults should have the liberty to work out their arrangements on what suits them best, even if we do not agree with them, so far it does not impact the liberties of others. I think it makes fulfillment achievable for some if they know they don't need social and legal licenses to do what they want.

That said, I subscribe to the idea of spousal caring and sharing. The essence that is captured and repeated in marriage vows. The " in sickness and in health " kind of mantra. The spouse being your other. I mean your twin in the joys and the vicissitudes of life. I love a woman in many stages of undress, not just with her clothes and her fashion sense .

But in the sense of her psychological state, and her evolution as a human being. Not having her around would deny me this experience. Living apart is too radical and too logical approach for me. I prefer the adventure of life's never ending highs and lows. I know it can be tasking, still I am aware it can be more fulfilling and I am sure it creates a well rounded personality in the end.

The personality that understands the many varieties of emotions of living partnerships. That is the sort of partnership, I would like to have, and I want to have. Because I know at birth I was naked, and in death, I would be naked. Those are the loneliness I can't help that I know only me would have to deal with in my moments of privacy.



christine dubois said:
The term "arranged marriage" is a very merciful, we use mostly "forced marriages".
The point is that two young people (man and woman) are promised and forced to marry each other. Many times the loss of their friends and a move (many cases an abduction) is the consequence. But there is another pressure, more subtle; as you've said already , cousin marries cousin, what means that her family is also his family. If you risk now to divorce, you lose the whole family, you are a betrayer, you defile the family honour.
Not to mention that around 100 000 people (nearly 100% women) get killed by their brothers or fathers, if the daughter/sister is not willing to marry or tries to divorce

It's mainly practiced is islamic countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Irak..), but also Turkey, Albania,some Greek regions and Asia. But we also have in Germany some cases where brothers dashed their sister with benzin and burned her alive in the middle of the street.
But let's just to understand the normal situation. For me, as a woman, the imagination that you have to have sex and kids with a man, you don't love, is like a daily, weekly or monthly rape, with a big torture at the end. The reason, why many women commit suicide.

Of course there is a possibility that your parents make a good decision and let's take it that 100% of the parents are acting in a good will, but they are also enmeshed in their family bonds..

you are talking about your country..I assume you are talking about an african country..which one is it? Are you from Senegal?
Click to expand...
 
:cool:

Now, you know !

So tell me what do you think. Do you want to take a trip with me the naija way?
Does it matter whether things are going well, or the world is coming to an end with you?


christine dubois said:
oh, thank you- I've never heard that before.. I checked on Internet..

"Whether things are going well or whether it seems the world is about to come to an end, "Naija!" -also written 9ja - expresses it all"
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The Dark Knight said:
Dude you can have a school that's failing in literacy and attribute it to a litany of reasons such as poverty, abuse, poor teaching, inadequate teaching facilities, lack of motivation etc. One wouldn't ignore the fact that even though there may be multiple to reasons to the education system not living up to a higher performance that it isn't working. That its ineffective and should be changed not done away with but perhaps changed.
That was a rather spot analogy my friend. Two institutions that are mandated by law and human interaction.
Whatever the reason as to why it isn't working doesn't take away from the tangible and ever present fact that it isn't working as a whole. It may be working for some but much like those kids who are fortunate enough to get a bid to a charter school and get a good education doesn't mean the system isn't broken as a whole.
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Dude, you must be kidding. Comparing marriage and charter schools is like saying..well, that the moon is made of swiss cheese. Marriage is social convention, rooted in religion and regulated by law. The intent of the educational system to allow communication among people, and advance culture and science. There is NO basis for comparing the two, even with the tenuous strain on logic.
 
swirlman07 said:
Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...
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Just give it up - if we don't agree, it must be because we are missing something, DK keeps doing that - he wont accept that his view is not the all encompassing truth. - Sorry DK, that that is a fact - you keep doing this "we keep missing" "dont see" "reading comprehension" stuff.
It would be nice if you just can come to terms with the fact that we don't see it your way and that your way is not the all encompassing truth. Its actually rather arrogant.

The majority keeps explaining to you why they think so - you are in the minority and still you think everybody else is wrong. And to be clear nobody is saying you are wrong, we are just telling you why we don't agree. But I guess we all are just missing the real truth that you have.

LOL - sorry, its getting funny to me.
 
FG said:
Just give it up - if we don't agree, it must be because we are missing something, DK keeps doing that - he wont accept that his view is not the all encompassing truth. - Sorry DK, that that is a fact - you keep doing this "we keep missing" "dont see" "reading comprehension" stuff.
It would be nice if you just can come to terms with the fact that we don't see it your way and that your way is not the all encompassing truth. Its actually rather arrogant.

The majority keeps explaining to you why they think so - you are in the minority and still you think everybody else is wrong. And to be clear nobody is saying you are wrong, we are just telling you why we don't agree. But I guess we all are just missing the real truth that you have.

LOL - sorry, its getting funny to me.
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Indeed, no one has said he was wrong, only that WE have a different perspective. It's unfortunate that his reply most usually is that WE have missed something, aren't being logical (despite this being more applicable to his arguments), being older, being American, not being American, being bitter or wounded...in short anything but him being wrong.

Btw, I knew it was a lost cause when he tried to compare marriage and literacy in schools, lol. All that it accomplished was to change the emphasis of the discussion to one about how to make schools better.
 
swirlman07 said:
Dude, you must be kidding. Comparing marriage and charter schools is like saying..well, that the moon is made of swiss cheese. Marriage is social convention, rooted in religion and regulated by law. The intent of the educational system to allow communication among people, and advance culture and science. There is NO basis for comparing the two, even with the tenuous strain on logic.
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No its comparing two different types of institutions and even if you disagree with their similarities how can you deny the logic in function.
Any other system that functioned well only half the time would be considered a failure under any other circumstances. I don't get how you attribute millions of errors to simple human error and no design flaw. I'd be inclined to agree if it were 10 percent but if the outcome for success is as likely as the out come for failure how isn't considered failure.
 
Being in the minority doesn't make me wrong or you guys right. Surprises I haven't seen agree to disagree from the mature older crowd yet lol

FG said:
Just give it up - if we don't agree, it must be because we are missing something, DK keeps doing that - he wont accept that his view is not the all encompassing truth. - Sorry DK, that that is a fact - you keep doing this "we keep missing" "dont see" "reading comprehension" stuff.
It would be nice if you just can come to terms with the fact that we don't see it your way and that your way is not the all encompassing truth. Its actually rather arrogant.

The majority keeps explaining to you why they think so - you are in the minority and still you think everybody else is wrong. And to be clear nobody is saying you are wrong, we are just telling you why we don't agree. But I guess we all are just missing the real truth that you have.

LOL - sorry, its getting funny to me.
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swirlman07 said:
Indeed, no one has said he was wrong, only that WE have a different perspective. It's unfortunate that his reply most usually is that WE have missed something, aren't being logical (despite this being more applicable to his arguments), being older, being American, not being American, being bitter or wounded...in short anything but him being wrong.

Btw, I knew it was a lost cause when he tried to compare marriage and literacy in schools, lol. All that it accomplished was to change the emphasis of the discussion to one about how to make schools better.
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yep - same w drugs.... But no matter. What I think is that we, in the western world specifically are becoming more egoistic, more self-loving, instant gratification, sense of entitlement etc etc.
Many of us don't get the sacrifice, compromise etc that truly is needed and what gratification that can give you.

Having that said, as that is becoming more common, people that think like that and want their independence etc - really do have the opportunity to live that way with a gf/bf that agree.
The rest that still value the philosophy of a conventional relationship can do so as well.
The former group really didn't exists to a measurable degree a few decades ago and would be considered wrong - today, its actually an accepted way of living. As I mentioned, in Sweden, we even have a dedicated name for adults who are in a committed relationship but choose to live separately and its not entirely uncommon here either.

Prior to the 60 and the 70s even, it was very hard to climb the corporate ladder if you were not married..
Today, that view has changed and single people have a bigger chance to climb as family obligations is seen as a hindrance in many instances.

Also, today, unmarried couples do have health benefits for the unmarried spouse, etc that did not exist decades ago.... common law ... The only ones that do not reap those benefits are same sex unmarried couples.

Of course these are massive generalization but I am trying to highlight the huge change in attitude from the corporate world/state law and the world in regards to DKs earlier claim. These things have changed drastically and for the better for people who choose to not get married... with more changes to come I am sure.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Being in the minority doesn't make me wrong or you guys right. Surprises I haven't seen agree to disagree from the mature older crowd yet lol
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Are you serious??:confused:

How stubborn are you?? How many times have I or other people told you that you are not wrong!!! (let me underline that since you clearly keep missing that.) LOL.

We are simply trying to make you understand that we have a different view - you are the one telling us that we are wrong.
YOU are the one that is completely incapable to say agree to dissagree - because you still think we are wrong and we are only telling you we don't agree and that you are not wrong - hence, we have ALREADY said agree to disssagree"

The only thing we have done so far is to explain to you why we don't agree - and you keep saying that we don't get it...

Again, we ave NEVER said you were wrong. Do you want me to repeat that? We have never said you were wrong.


and for the record, I am calm as a cucumber - I just am trying to make you get we never said you were wrong, you keep telling us that we are wrong.

Rinse repeat:-)
 
The Dark Knight said:
No its comparing two different types of institutions and even if you disagree with their similarities how can you deny the logic in function.
Any other system that functioned well only half the time would be considered a failure under any other circumstances. I don't get how you attribute millions of errors to simple human error and no design flaw. I'd be inclined to agree if it were 10 percent but if the outcome for success is as likely as the out come for failure how isn't considered failure.
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Against my better judgment and advice, sigh, I'll try one more time. Let's start with institutions. Institutions are really organizations united that are united for a specific purpose. So, it's ONLY in regard to a general definition that the point of calling attention to institutions is relevant.

I don't need to get into the specifics of marriage to show that the analogy is not well thought through. Taking the notion of institution, how about religion. Christianity is an institution here in the states. It espouses principles of equality among people, selflessness, sharing, the value of marriage and commitment, not to mention adherence to the ten commandments. However, despite all of this, we live in chaos. Crime is everywhere, there's a lack of equality and caring for one another, and the divorce rate is high. So, according to you, the institution is failing and we should look to another religion to replace the broken system, yes??

Alternately, sports programs are institutions in the sense that they are united for a specific purpose, to advance competition in a specific arena. This is analogous to schools, which advance education. But, in the case of sports, and specifically in the case of individual sports, like golf or tennis, players are viewed as the most elite if they can achieve anything approaching 50% wins.

Routinely, officials are selected with less than a 50% of the voting electorate. Should voting be replaced as failed system because it fails to attract a sufficiently high number of participants?

Less than 50% of people are open to interracial relationships, so does that mean that the idea of interracial relationships is a failed concept, that represents the exception, and should be abandoned?

The Dark Knight said:
Being in the minority doesn't make me wrong or you guys right. Surprises I haven't seen agree to disagree from the mature older crowd yet lol
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LOL, untrue and you know it. I've seen it often and I've even written that as a frustrated response to you..much as I'm about to do here, once again, lol.
 
naija4real said:
What you wrote, and what I highlighted, I concur with, wholeheartedly. People should be allowed to live with the consequences of their own decisions, not that of others, especially in areas of life where they have that choice.

I have always supported the notion that two consenting adults should have the liberty to work out their arrangements on what suits them best, even if we do not agree with them, so far it does not impact the liberties of others. I think it makes fulfillment achievable for some if they know they don't need social and legal licenses to do what they want.

That said, I subscribe to the idea of spousal caring and sharing. The essence that is captured and repeated in marriage vows. The " in sickness and in health " kind of mantra. The spouse being your other. I mean your twin in the joys and the vicissitudes of life. I love a woman in many stages of undress, not just with her clothes and her fashion sense .

But in the sense of her psychological state, and her evolution as a human being. Not having her around would deny me this experience. Living apart is too radical and too logical approach for me. I prefer the adventure of life's never ending highs and lows. I know it can be tasking, still I am aware it can be more fulfilling and I am sure it creates a well rounded personality in the end.

The personality that understands the many varieties of emotions of living partnerships. That is the sort of partnership, I would like to have, and I want to have. Because I know at birth I was naked, and in death, I would be naked. Those are the loneliness I can't help that I know only me would have to deal with in my moments of privacy.
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You write very poetic, sensual and empathetic. I've only met two Nigerians in my life, both were very charismatic, kind and charming, but also pretty shrewd..lol..as you are, too:D

naija4real said:
:cool:

Now, you know !

So tell me what do you think. Do you want to take a trip with me the naija way?
Does it matter whether things are going well, or the world is coming to an end with you?
Click to expand...

I am a person of adventure, so you tickle my sense of curiosity, now.:smt081 I've always made a great fuss about Nigeria, I don't have the strong protection in that country that is necessary to survive there--lol--but as much as I've heard it must be a very interesting and rich country in some areas..do you go back there from time to time?
 
swirlman07 said:
Against my better judgment and advice, sigh, I'll try one more time. Let's start with institutions. Institutions are really organizations united that are united for a specific purpose. So, it's ONLY in regard to a general definition that the point of calling attention to institutions is relevant.

I don't need to get into the specifics of marriage to show that the analogy is not well thought through. Taking the notion of institution, how about religion. Christianity is an institution here in the states. It espouses principles of equality among people, selflessness, sharing, the value of marriage and commitment, not to mention adherence to the ten commandments. However, despite all of this, we live in chaos. Crime is everywhere, there's a lack of equality and caring for one another, and the divorce rate is high. So, according to you, the institution is failing and we should look to another religion to replace the broken system, yes??

Alternately, sports programs are institutions in the sense that they are united for a specific purpose, to advance competition in a specific arena. This is analogous to schools, which advance education. But, in the case of sports, and specifically in the case of individual sports, like golf or tennis, players are viewed as the most elite if they can achieve anything approaching 50% wins.

Routinely, officials are selected with less than a 50% of the voting electorate. Should voting be replaced as failed system because it fails to attract a sufficiently high number of participants?

Less than 50% of people are open to interracial relationships, so does that mean that the idea of interracial relationships is a failed concept, that represents the exception, and should be abandoned?



LOL, untrue and you know it. I've seen it often and I've even written that as a frustrated response to you..much as I'm about to do here, once again, lol.
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I don't even know where to start lol.
Is Christianity failing in it's endeavors to do what it preaches to do absolutely. Should others find another religion? That's not for me to decide but I again I say if its not achieving what it sought out to do then changes should be made. No sense in trying to fit a square peg into a circle.

That sports analogy was ridiculous. Being an elite athlete is only relative to how many wins the last best guy got. So if the current best guy wins 50% of the time next guy would have to win 51% to show he's better than the current best and so and so forth.
Would you send your child to a school where they only had a 50% chance of graduating? How would you view that school?

First of voting is total bs at this point. I actually covered this in class the other day. I'll post the link if you want. But to your point voting as it stands now doesn't serve the interest of the people who are actually voting.

I won't even touch the IR thing because you know better and I don't even know why you would throw that out there as an argument.
 
The point is, the 50% number for marriage success/failure is somewhat arbitrary.
ELite universities accept less than 10% of its undergraduate applicants. Does that mean 90% of those who applied are inherently inferior students??

Nearly everyone who seeks a driver's license eventually receives one, no matter how many times they try. Does that mean most drivers are innately safe and responsible motorists who never get tickets??

Some 'numbers' have too many variables involved to rely on just one statistic as absolute proof of a greater conclusion.

Take the example of Hollywood actors and professional athletes. Both groups notoriously have a high failure rate anecdotally where marriage is concerned.

In both cases, would you assume there's something wrong with the institution, or is something different about these individuals that makes marriage not the most viable long term relationship alternative???

Marriage like anything else in life is what you make of it.
There are people who start off at community college who go on to earn medical degrees, and students who fail out of top 20 schools because they partied all the time in undergrad.

The problem IMO isn't the institution of marriage. It's fidelity.
Most people are loyal ONLY to one person other than their immediate family; themselves.

That's the equivalent of an inveterate thief getting a job handling currency in a bank vault.
At some point he's going to fail and it has nothing to do with the pressure of his job.:smt005
 
Long thread, didn't read it.
AfroLove said:
What's the point of this? Am I the only one who would find the idea of living alone but having a long term partner(s) that you don't live with more appealing than moving in together?

I could stand being around someone all the time, I need my privacy, and the over familiarity could become a problem.
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Strictly from the "me" pov: Because I want them to, I want a committed spouse who sleeps in my bed, if I don't want that, I would not get married.

A lot of people don't marry their partner or live with them, so it obviously works out fine for them their way and I'm sure you can have that if you want it, but I don't, not from a long-term relationship.
 
If you just want a fuck buddy I really don't see the point of even marrying. Just have a fuck buddy and be done with it.

My biggest complaint would be if you have children I do not think it would be in their best intrest.
 
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