Why is it necessary to live with a spouse

[swirlman07]

This forum is not for the faint of heart...

It's ironic that the emphasis of debate on this topic has turned to the divorce rate. It's ironic in the various commentaries that exemplify a strong desire to maintain so much independence, in a relationship that requires compromise. It's called selfishness and I'm in agreement with those responses that suggest it's the individual choices of the people that make for a bad marriage. It's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you always put your needs and wishes ahead of the relationship and your spouse, that your relationship will fail, period.

It wouldn't matter whether it's an arranged marriage of not, no marriage will be "successful" where both people don't work hard at making the marriage work. It's not so much natural, as a choice to be committed and do the work necessary because you want the relationship to work.

The divorce rate doesn't give us much insight into the viability of this choice in relationships. In fact, in keeping with taking a scientific and objective perspective, it's merely anecdotal information. Unless you know a lot more about the reasons behind the numbers you've nothing to allow any logical evaluation, just supposition and opinion.

IMO, it's a choice, to be married, to give up something in exchange for something that I personally would value more than the alternative. It works for some, it doesn't work for others, and that's OK. If you can find a person who feels as you do, feels good about living apart, allows you to maintain the independence you desire, and is willing to have a family and still fulfill your expectations, great.

 

[The Dark King]

I'm beginning to see that romantic love seems to be a drug that causes illusion. I've never witnessed mutual love in my life. Someone is always dissatisfied and/or cheating. People rarely compromise. I beliemarriage.[/ve in family and obligation kind of makes me wish I had been born to a culture that believes in arranged marriagesQUOTE]

Are you sure you know, what you are talking about? And you also know what stands behind arranged marriages? You are aware this is oppression,humiliation and disrespect of women?

There is no absolute to that. I have friends from college who did that here in the states and they seem far happier to me. Some people trust their parents would make a good decision for them based on more than momentary lust. The roles are well defined and the people (at least those I've known) don't mind fulfilling them. They seem happy. There are a lot of choices made for us by our parents that are in our best interest that we wouldn't normally choose for ourselves this is just another example of that.

 

[goodlove]

This forum is not for the faint of heart...

It's ironic that the emphasis of debate on this topic has turned to the divorce rate. It's ironic in the various commentaries that exemplify a strong desire to maintain so much independence, in a relationship that requires compromise. It's called selfishness and I'm in agreement with those responses that suggest it's the individual choices of the people that make for a bad marriage. It's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you always put your needs and wishes ahead of the relationship and your spouse, that your relationship will fail, period.

It wouldn't matter whether it's an arranged marriage of not, no marriage will be "successful" where both people don't work hard at making the marriage work. It's not so much natural, as a choice to be committed and do the work necessary because you want the relationship to work.

The divorce rate doesn't give us much insight into the viability of this choice in relationships. In fact, in keeping with taking a scientific and objective perspective, it's merely anecdotal information. Unless you know a lot more about the reasons behind the numbers you've nothing to allow any logical evaluation, just supposition and opinion.

IMO, it's a choice, to be married, to give up something in exchange for something that I personally would value more than the alternative. It works for some, it doesn't work for others, and that's OK. If you can find a person who feels as you do, feels good about living apart, allows you to maintain the independence you desire, and is willing to have a family and still fulfill your expectations, great.

well stated

 

[Ches]

This.

This forum is not for the faint of heart...

It's ironic that the emphasis of debate on this topic has turned to the divorce rate. It's ironic in the various commentaries that exemplify a strong desire to maintain so much independence, in a relationship that requires compromise. It's called selfishness and I'm in agreement with those responses that suggest it's the individual choices of the people that make for a bad marriage. It's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you always put your needs and wishes ahead of the relationship and your spouse, that your relationship will fail, period.

It wouldn't matter whether it's an arranged marriage of not, no marriage will be "successful" where both people don't work hard at making the marriage work. It's not so much natural, as a choice to be committed and do the work necessary because you want the relationship to work.

The divorce rate doesn't give us much insight into the viability of this choice in relationships. In fact, in keeping with taking a scientific and objective perspective, it's merely anecdotal information. Unless you know a lot more about the reasons behind the numbers you've nothing to allow any logical evaluation, just supposition and opinion.

IMO, it's a choice, to be married, to give up something in exchange for something that I personally would value more than the alternative. It works for some, it doesn't work for others, and that's OK. If you can find a person who feels as you do, feels good about living apart, allows you to maintain the independence you desire, and is willing to have a family and still fulfill your expectations, great.

 

[Stheno]

There is no absolute to that. I have friends from college who did that here in the states and they seem far happier to me. Some people trust their parents would make a good decision for them based on more than momentary lust. The roles are well defined and the people (at least those I've known) don't mind fulfilling them. They seem happy. There are a lot of choices made for us by our parents that are in our best interest that we wouldn't normally choose for ourselves this is just another example of that.

lol you have no idea what you talk now ..

 

[The Dark King]

Anecdotal? Really? When the sample size is big it can't simply be just a bunch of people being selfish. If we had schools that had a 50% literacy rate wouldn't we look at the literacy programs as a whole or just assume that its different person to person. I don't get how so many smart people just completely ignore that simple fact.

This forum is not for the faint of heart...

It's ironic that the emphasis of debate on this topic has turned to the divorce rate. It's ironic in the various commentaries that exemplify a strong desire to maintain so much independence, in a relationship that requires compromise. It's called selfishness and I'm in agreement with those responses that suggest it's the individual choices of the people that make for a bad marriage. It's pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you always put your needs and wishes ahead of the relationship and your spouse, that your relationship will fail, period.

It wouldn't matter whether it's an arranged marriage of not, no marriage will be "successful" where both people don't work hard at making the marriage work. It's not so much natural, as a choice to be committed and do the work necessary because you want the relationship to work.

The divorce rate doesn't give us much insight into the viability of this choice in relationships. In fact, in keeping with taking a scientific and objective perspective, it's merely anecdotal information. Unless you know a lot more about the reasons behind the numbers you've nothing to allow any logical evaluation, just supposition and opinion.

IMO, it's a choice, to be married, to give up something in exchange for something that I personally would value more than the alternative. It works for some, it doesn't work for others, and that's OK. If you can find a person who feels as you do, feels good about living apart, allows you to maintain the independence you desire, and is willing to have a family and still fulfill your expectations, great.

 

[goodlove]

its buck wild in here

 

[Stheno]

whats wrong with the quote thing in here

 

[swirlman07]

Are you sure you know, what you are talking about? And you also know what stands behind arranged marriages? You are aware this is oppression,humiliation and disrespect of women?

I don't think that arranged marriages represent those negatives, per se. Certainly, there can be arranged marriages where these things occur, but it's not universal. My sense is that it's a choice as well, between what the participants often view as "love" marriages versus "arranged" marriages. The view that I've often seen expressed is that others are better able to pair up parties based on sustaining factors of similar social classes, similar education, common culture and religion physical appearance as well. In many arranged marriages, the couple meet and have discussions beforehand. There may also be several different "suitors" involved, and not a choice of one person, take it or leave it. So, the choice is a mutual decision that differs from "typical" marriages, only in the length of the time the people know one another and the lack of intimacy between the couple.

 

[swirlman07]

Anecdotal? Really? When the sample size is big it can't simply be just a bunch of people being selfish. If we had schools that had a 50% literacy rate wouldn't we look at the literacy programs as a whole or just assume that its different person to person. I don't get how so many smart people just completely ignore that simple fact.

Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...

 

[goodlove]

Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...

well stated. divorce happens for various reasons....not because the institution of marriage is bad....its the people who is working the institution. they dont know how the system work because for years people were never taught and plus have psychologocial issues. its possible that not all people are made for marriage

 

[swirlman07]

well stated. divorce happens for various reasons....not because the institution of marriage is bad....its the people who is working the institution. they dont know how the system work because for years people were never taught and plus have psychologocial issues. its possible that not all people are made for marriage

In American society, where people are constantly told that they should be have the best of everything, that they should have it right now, that they shouldn't have to work for it, and that their needs and desires should be met completely, it's not surprising that the divorce rate is high.

 

[goodlove]

Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...

In American society, where people are constantly told that they should be have the best of everything, that they should have it right now, that they shouldn't have to work for it, and that their needs and desires should be met completely, it's not surprising that the divorce rate is high.

that too. people are very unrealistic. they watch waaaaayyyy too many movies

 

[naija4real]

In some cases, it is what you wrote, and what I highlighted. But in several other cases, indeed, it does work with both parties fully fulfilled and wishing for nothing else.

In the several cases, the idea that not all societies have fully individualized subsists, I mean to the extent of the western concept of nuclear families. In many societies, mine inclusive (not my part of the country though) cousins marry cousins, and marriages are bonds between families not just the individuals involved. Family patterns are usually different from what obtains in the west.

As such, I would argue that marriage is not about oppression, humiliation and disrespect of women, but rather a communal rite that matured adults are expected to undertake when they are at a ripe age . The choices of sucking the milk and not paying for it never really arise.

I'm beginning to see that romantic love seems to be a drug that causes illusion. I've never witnessed mutual love in my life. Someone is always dissatisfied and/or cheating. People rarely compromise. I beliemarriage.[/ve in family and obligation kind of makes me wish I had been born to a culture that believes in arranged marriagesQUOTE]

Are you sure you know, what you are talking about? And you also know what stands behind arranged marriages? You are aware this is oppression,humiliation and disrespect of women?

 

[Ches]

In American society, where people are constantly told that they should be have the best of everything, that they should have it right now, that they shouldn't have to work for it, and that their needs and desires should be met completely, it's not surprising that the divorce rate is high.

It all goes back to what you said before, Swirl, about selfishness. If each person is only looking out for #1 and marriage is only about what he/she gets out of it and not what he/she gives, the marriage doesn't stand a chance.

I have caught flak for this in another thread, but this is what real submission looks like (as outlined in the Bible). It's not about one partner dominating another, its about being selfless and putting your ego aside to be what your partner needs you to be. And when both partners are of the same mindset, the result is a loving and mutually satisfying marriage.

 

[goodlove]

It all goes back to what you said before, Swirl, about selfishness. If each person is only looking out for #1 and marriage is only about what he/she gets out of it and not what he/she gives, the marriage doesn't stand a chance.

I have caught flak for this in another thread, but this is what real submission looks like (as outlined in the Bible). It's not about one partner dominating another, its about being selfless and putting your ego aside to be what your partner needs you to be. And when both partners are of the same mindset, the result is a loving and mutually satisfying marriage.

Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...

 

[The Dark King]

Yes, anecdotal, really. There's NO way to logically deduce the viability of marriage based on the divorce rate.

I do believe that I said it's ALL about the individuals, whether it's selfishness, immaturity, inability to discern who's a good match, hasty decisions, decisions made based on wanting children, more than wanting a relationship, etc.

As to your example, as you'd say, false equivalence. Apples and oranges. But, you can go back to your drug analogy if you prefer. You should know in that case that NO drug is 100% effective, including aspirin, and that rates of less than 50% for non-life giving drugs as still as success.

Maybe, those smart people don't understand why you don't see the obvious as well, or at least understand what comprises anecdotal evidence...

Dude you can have a school that's failing in literacy and attribute it to a litany of reasons such as poverty, abuse, poor teaching, inadequate teaching facilities, lack of motivation etc. One wouldn't ignore the fact that even though there may be multiple to reasons to the education system not living up to a higher performance that it isn't working. That its ineffective and should be changed not done away with but perhaps changed.
That was a rather spot analogy my friend. Two institutions that are mandated by law and human interaction.
Whatever the reason as to why it isn't working doesn't take away from the tangible and ever present fact that it isn't working as a whole. It may be working for some but much like those kids who are fortunate enough to get a bid to a charter school and get a good education doesn't mean the system isn't broken as a whole.

 

[christine dubois]

In some cases, it is what you wrote, and what I highlighted. But in several other cases, indeed, it does work with both parties fully fulfilled and wishing for nothing else.

In the several cases, the idea that not all societies have fully individualized subsists, I mean to the extent of the western concept of nuclear families. In many societies, mine inclusive (not my part of the country though) cousins marry cousins, and marriages are bonds between families not just the individuals involved. Family patterns are usually different from what obtains in the west.

As such, I would argue that marriage is not about oppression, humiliation and disrespect of women, but rather a communal rite that matured adults are expected to undertake when they are at a ripe age . The choices of sucking the milk and not paying for it never really arise.

The term "arranged marriage" is a very merciful, we use mostly "forced marriages".
The point is that two young people (man and woman) are promised and forced to marry each other. Many times the loss of their friends and a move (many cases an abduction) is the consequence. But there is another pressure, more subtle; as you've said already , cousin marries cousin, what means that her family is also his family. If you risk now to divorce, you lose the whole family, you are a betrayer, you defile the family honour.
Not to mention that around 100 000 people (nearly 100% women) get killed by their brothers or fathers, if the daughter/sister is not willing to marry or tries to divorce

It's mainly practiced is islamic countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Irak..), but also Turkey, Albania,some Greek regions and Asia. But we also have in Germany some cases where brothers dashed their sister with benzin and burned her alive in the middle of the street.
But let's just to understand the normal situation. For me, as a woman, the imagination that you have to have sex and kids with a man, you don't love, is like a daily, weekly or monthly rape, with a big torture at the end. The reason, why many women commit suicide.

Of course there is a possibility that your parents make a good decision and let's take it that 100% of the parents are acting in a good will, but they are also enmeshed in their family bonds..

you are talking about your country..I assume you are talking about an african country..which one is it? Are you from Senegal?

 

[The Dark King]

The term "arranged marriage" is a very merciful, we use mostly "forced marriages".
The point is that two young people (man and woman) are promised and forced to marry each other. Many times the loss of their friends and a move (many cases an abduction) is the consequence. But there is another pressure, more subtle; as you've said already , cousin marries cousin, what means that her family is also his family. If you risk now to divorce, you lose the whole family, you are a betrayer, you defile the family honour.
Not to mention that around 100 000 people (nearly 100% women) get killed by their brothers or fathers, if the daughter/sister is not willing to marry or tries to divorce

It's mainly practiced is islamic countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Irak..), but also Turkey, Albania,some Greek regions and Asia. But we also have in Germany some cases where brothers dashed their sister with benzin and burned her alive in the middle of the street.
But let's just to understand the normal situation. For me, as a woman, the imagination that you have to have sex and kids with a man, you don't love, is like a daily, weekly or monthly rape, with a big torture at the end. The reason, why many women commit suicide.

Of course there is a possibility that your parents make a good decision and let's take it that 100% of the parents are acting in a good will, but they are also enmeshed in their family bonds..

you are talking about your country..I assume you are talking about an african country..which one is it? Are you from Senegal?

What about Indians and Albanians? Here in NY I have known so many young people who do this and seem to come from a strong support system where everyone looks out for each other and seems to love each other. Like I said earlier it may be bad in some cases but not everyone. And I also want to highlight where you said it would be rape for you. It's interesting that you don't think of it at as rape for the guy since the woman is being chosen for him, he isn't making any kind of choice.

 

[christine dubois]

What about Indians and Albanians? Here in NY I have known so many young people who do this and seem to come from a strong support system where everyone looks out for each other and seems to love each other. Like I said earlier it may be bad in some cases but not everyone. And I also want to highlight where you said it would be rape for you. It's interesting that you don't think of it at as rape for the guy since the woman is being chosen for him, he isn't making any kind of choice.

It's correct that they (Albanese) hold together. I've made several experiences with albanese people and they are a group-that solve the problems themselves. I am saying that, because, when I've had a bar, many times I've had problems with them, till I called their "boss". Then it was over.
Seems to be correct, but it also reminds me of "Mafia"..
Albanese people here are immigrants that experienced a cruel war and they are not to underestimate. There is a strong hierarchy between them, rough and without mercy

How it feels for a man, would be your job.. I can just talk out of a womans perspective

Indians-is a foreign culture to me. Singhs and Shahs live like kings, while the rest of the nation die of hunger on the street..When I was in Mumbai, the Indians seemed to me like a nation of kids, honestly. Alone, when I've seen, how managers come with their dinner box, like pupils, because they only eat what Mom prepared.