Normally,I wouldn't say this around Black people but...

rinnaye said:
Dearest FEHG,

I like the way you put that! I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Only thing is, you're saying it, and you're white, which means many blacks may discredit it, coming out of your mouth, but this is something I would like to write a book on. This coming from a black man that has overcome those very obstacles that we say are holding us back. I'll either be praised for the book, or shot. lol
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Please do write that book, I want to read it.
 
FEHG said:
I hate it when any person fulfills stereotypes - especially negative ones.

I feel as though a lot of black people follow very strong stereotypes under the guise of racial pride, when in actual fact it's a "cut off the nose to spite the face" type of scenario.

I also feel as though a lot of black people are angry - perhaps with reason - and that this is holding them back from achieving their potential. I don't believe that the world is as hard for them as they think, and that there are many opportunities which are missed because of each individual's (and the collective) perception of the situation and their negative response. I am not saying that the world is equal - we all know that's not true...What I'm saying is that we create our own reality. And that in this day and age, the systems are in place to allow any person to succeed if they want it badly enough.

I would point out that this is constructive criticism. I hate nothing more than a faltering minority. I want nothing more than an equal society where all can and do succeed. I say what I say with the purpose of highlighting issues which I believe can be rectified in order uplift the black community.
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Juli3113 said:
I have to take a small exception to something FEHG said. You don't believe the world is as hard on them (blacks) as they think? How would you know? I was in a class not too long ago and the instructor (successful black man) asked if we thought conditions were better for blacks now. My answer was, how would I know? All I know is the world from my perspective, what I read, watch, hear etc. I'll never know what it's like to have someone cross the street to avoid me, or be afraid of me for no reason, or follow me around in a store because of the way I look. I would never presume, as a white person, to tell black Americans how they have it. They would have to tell me.
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Both of these ladies are insightful and make good points.
 
FEHG said:
I hate it when any person fulfills stereotypes - especially negative ones.

I feel as though a lot of black people follow very strong stereotypes under the guise of racial pride, when in actual fact it's a "cut off the nose to spite the face" type of scenario.

I also feel as though a lot of black people are angry - perhaps with reason - and that this is holding them back from achieving their potential. I don't believe that the world is as hard for them as they think, and that there are many opportunities which are missed because of each individual's (and the collective) perception of the situation and their negative response. I am not saying that the world is equal - we all know that's not true...What I'm saying is that we create our own reality. And that in this day and age, the systems are in place to allow any person to succeed if they want it badly enough.

I would point out that this is constructive criticism. I hate nothing more than a faltering minority. I want nothing more than an equal society where all can and do succeed. I say what I say with the purpose of highlighting issues which I believe can be rectified in order uplift the black community.
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I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have a Nigerian friend who is convinced you have to work twice as hard to get anywhere if you are black.And he isnt the first black person I have heard say this. Its become a cliche now.I'm not sure how true this is, but even if it is true, why dont people see it as a challenge and rise above it..I am convinced the world isn't fair. But, my attitude is be so damn good that they have no reason not too hire you, or not to promote you. I too feel western blacks have huge opportunities to succeed..it bothers me that a lot feel like they have to hide behind the 'not having the opportunities 'cliche.In the UK, I just have to look at the Indians who arrived later then Black people doing so much better then us..A lot of them run their own businesses..Why cant we do that??
I think a lot of people really need to change their thought process here. Companies exist to make a profit, thats obvious, so why woudnt they want to employ the best candidate?Anyway thats how I see it..Especially with the Blue chip companies, ultimately they want to maximise shareholder return.
 
interesting stuff, people..good stuff.
I was hesitant for weeks about doing this thread..since I was new here ..I didn't want anyone to censor themselves from saying what was on their mind or think I was trolling. Everything seems to work out well.
 
It's not that I dislike you (black women), but it's just that sometimes I have to do my own thing. Seriously, I love you no less than I do my blue-eyed sisters, but right now the women of fairer skin just happen to be the ones that are catching my eyes. No, it's not a self-hatred thing; I love all women. It's just so happens that the one I'm with now has brown hair and green eyes :D

Yes, racism is still very much alive; just like the nation's first black president-elect. However, every moment dedicated to ranting about how that jerk of a boss won't give you a pay increase because your skin isn't as pale as his is a moment that could have been spent looking for a new job. Sometimes you have to deal with a little unnecessary bullshit now to get what you want later. Not saying it's ever OK, but simply (continue) to work hard and aim for the stars. Easier said than done, I know, but so is everything else in life!

This unhealthy obsession with consumerism has got to go!

It's OK to listen to classical music.
 
rinnaye said:
Dearest FEHG,

I like the way you put that! I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Only thing is, you're saying it, and you're white, which means many blacks may discredit it, coming out of your mouth, but this is something I would like to write a book on. This coming from a black man that has overcome those very obstacles that we say are holding us back. I'll either be praised for the book, or shot. lol
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Thank you very much. I am never sure if what I mean to say comes across correctly. And, yes...I know that what I say has no weight, because I am just a white female...
You should write that book. Not enough people will listen, but you may be able to get through to a couple of them.

Juli3113 said:
I have to take a small exception to something FEHG said. You don't believe the world is as hard on them (blacks) as they think? would you know? I was in a class not too long ago and the instructor (successful black man) asked if we thought conditions were better for blacks now. My answer was, how would I know? All I know is the world from my perspective, what I read, watch, hear etc. I'll never know what it's like to have someone cross the street to avoid me, or be afraid of me for no reason, or follow me around in a store because of the way I look. I would never presume, as a white person, to tell black Americans how they have it. They would have to tell me.
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Fair point Juli. I am making an educated observation, based on my interactions with the black community where I live and what I've seen on my travels. My ex, for example, used to complain about this that and the other...people being racist, people holding him down, blah blah blah. The truth was, it wasn't the world...it was him. He didn't work hard, he didn't try hard enough. Any person in the positions he was in and behaving the way he was would have attracted a similar outcome.

The point is, by blaming it on his colour, race and racism not only missed the point, but disempowered him from making any positive change. Afterall, he can't change his colour and blaming any negative outcome in your life on that is an easy way to not have to deal with personal flaws.

I believe that things aren't as bad as what people think, because there are precedents. Lots of black people succeed, more now than ever before. There is every legal structure in place to override racist behaviour. Like I said - I don't believe it doesn't exist and I still believe that black people, generally, have a harder time than white people where they are a minority. It is a tougher road, but if you want it bad enough, you can achieve anything...The ceiling is gone, there are no dead ends anymore.

Furthermore, in my experience, black people have very few troubles at all in achieving in their life, and moving up the corporate ladder when they just get on with it and stop with the bitching. My experience is based mostly out of the USA, but I find colour has very little to do with it...It's more attitude, and that is the difference.

rinnaye said:
Your point is both fair, and reasonable, but at the risk of seeming to come to FEHG's defense, may I say this? If you look at where blacks are socially today, compared to almost any other time, pre Civil Rights Movement, then it would be safe to say that what FEHG said is consistant with the facts. Afterall, we do now have a black President.
rolleyes.gif


Her statement also speaks to what may be a very popular perception amongst many blacks, which also may be a negative one indeed, i.e. (the white man is holding me down), so once again, FEHG is spot on there as well.

... and finally, Just because she's white, does not mean she can't have her own opinion on this type of subject matter either.

:D
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Thanks Rinnaye! :)
 
FEHG said:
Thank you very much. I am never sure if what I mean to say comes across correctly. And, yes...I know that what I say has no weight, because I am just a white female...
You should write that book. Not enough people will listen, but you may be able to get through to a couple of them.
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You're welcome!

You needn't worry FEHG, you always seem to articulate your points magnificantly, and with much eloquence. So please do not hesitate to keep your comments, and opinions coming. I for one, do enjoy reading your posts. They are very refreshing. :)



FEHG said:
Fair point Juli. I am making an educated observation, based on my interactions with the black community where I live and what I've seen on my travels. My ex, for example, used to complain about this that and the other...people being racist, people holding him down, blah blah blah. The truth was, it wasn't the world...it was him. He didn't work hard, he didn't try hard enough. Any person in the positions he was in and behaving the way he was would have attracted a similar outcome.

The point is, by blaming it on his colour, race and racism not only missed the point, but disempowered him from making any positive change. Afterall, he can't change his colour and blaming any negative outcome in your life on that is an easy way to not have to deal with personal flaws.
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By dating the guy you were dating, you did see for yourself, up close, and personal what the attitudes of at least a few blacks may be, this alone, does qualify you to have a valid opinion.

FEHG said:
I believe that things aren't as bad as what people think, because there are precedents. Lots of black people succeed, more now than ever before. There is every legal structure in place to override racist behaviour. Like I said - I don't believe it doesn't exist and I still believe that black people, generally, have a harder time than white people where they are a minority. It is a tougher road, but if you want it bad enough, you can achieve anything...The ceiling is gone, there are no dead ends anymore.
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Whites will be the minority roughly by mid century, and with affirmative action, and racial preferences still in play, who'll be the blame for those underacheiving blacks then? So to your point, it's all about perception.

FEHG said:
Furthermore, in my experience, black people have very few troubles at all in achieving in their life, and moving up the corporate ladder when they just get on with it and stop with the bitching. My experience is based mostly out of the USA, but I find colour has very little to do with it...It's more attitude, and that is the difference.
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FEHG, if those complaining, underacheiving blacks left the country, and saw what I've seen in other countries, including So. Africa, they would understand what great opportunities they have here in this country. If those underacheiving blacks just looked at America the same way any 3rd world foreigner does, as (the land of opportunity), they would better be suited to take full advantage of what's here, and being offered to us as American citizens. Complaining blacks need to put themselves in the shoes of third worlders, for a better perspective on how to take advantage of America's opportunities. Many of us fail to do this.
 
FEHG, if those complaining, underacheiving blacks left the country, and saw what I've seen in other countries, including So. Africa, they would understand what great opportunities they have here in this country. If those underacheiving blacks just looked at America the same way any 3rd world foreigner does, as (the land of opportunity), they would better be suited to take full advantage of what's here, and being offered to us as American citizens. Complaining blacks need to put themselves in the shoes of third worlders, for a better perspective on how to take advantage of America's opportunities. Many of us fail to do this.
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The same could be said for just about anyone living in the first world. There are always people who are worse-off than ourselves. I don't necessarilly think that should be a sole reason to be motivated. I prefer to have my motivation coming from within my rather than from an external stimulus....but, whatever works, really.

I applaud any black person who succeeds more than I would a white person, because I do know that it is a harder road, and they have probably overcome more than that white person...I think the biggest challenge is still in the mind, though...and that is the hardest to beat....But, I have no sympathy for people who wallow in their own misery. I have been told I am harsh, but that's just the way I see things. Perhaps one day I will change my mind, but not for a while yet.

I am glad that there are people like you out there, Rinnaye...and (if I remember correctly) you have children. Which is wonderful, because there are too many parents passing their hang ups on to their kids. :)

I really do hope you write that book, because it would sure be interesting, and I will be buying a copy.
 
FEHG said:
The same could be said for just about anyone living in the first world. There are always people who are worse-off than ourselves. I don't necessarilly think that should be a sole reason to be motivated. I prefer to have my motivation coming from within my rather than from an external stimulus....but, whatever works, really.

I applaud any black person who succeeds more than I would a white person, because I do know that it is a harder road, and they have probably overcome more than that white person...I think the biggest challenge is still in the mind, though...and that is the hardest to beat....But, I have no sympathy for people who wallow in their own misery. I have been told I am harsh, but that's just the way I see things. Perhaps one day I will change my mind, but not for a while yet.

I really do hope you write that book, because it would sure be interesting, and I will be buying a copy.
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You, and I share the same philosophy in at least a few areas my dear, and I don't think what some may consider your "harsh" ways, shall change anytime soon, if ever at all, because that's just how we are babe. ;)

I am getting a lot of positive feedback from quite a few people regarding the book I'd like to write. It has been a work in progress for the last two years, and research, and development has been at times futile, but nontheless, I am very encouraged by you, and others to continue on, and finish this project, and when I do, I'll promise you a signed copy, so please do stay in touch. :)
 
Rinnaye and FEHG, you are both obviously intelligent and articulate people and in no way am I trying to disparage either of your opinions. I totally agree that a victim mentality in anyone is counterproductive, and I understand what you are saying. I just sometimes hear white people make statements that racism doesnt exist anymore because "Look at Oprah"! That stuff makes me cringe. Look at Oprah, but look at New Orleans, South Los Angeles, DC, etc. Yes, the planets aligned which allowed a black man to become president. Eight years of Bush and people were ready for any Democrat to take over. But lets be honest, if Barack had a white wife, we wouldnt even be talking about him right now. Or even if his black wife's name was Shaniqua, we wouldnt know who he is. In a nutshell, comparing today to pre-civil rights, obviously great strides have been made in terms of race relations, but that is not necessarily the reality of every individuals day to day life.
 
Juli3113 said:
Rinnaye and FEHG, you are both obviously intelligent and articulate people and in no way am I trying to disparage either of your opinions. I totally agree that a victim mentality in anyone is counterproductive, and I understand what you are saying. I just sometimes hear white people make statements that racism doesnt exist anymore because "Look at Oprah"! That stuff makes me cringe. Look at Oprah, but look at New Orleans, South Los Angeles, DC, etc. Yes, the planets aligned which allowed a black man to become president. Eight years of Bush and people were ready for any Democrat to take over. But lets be honest, if Barack had a white wife, we wouldnt even be talking about him right now. Or even if his black wife's name was Shaniqua, we wouldnt know who he is. In a nutshell, comparing today to pre-civil rights, obviously great strides have been made in terms of race relations, but that is not necessarily the reality of every individuals day to day life.
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That's telling them.
 
Rinnaye and FEHG, you are both obviously intelligent and articulate people and in no way am I trying to disparage either of your opinions. I totally agree that a victim mentality in anyone is counterproductive, and I understand what you are saying. I just sometimes hear white people make statements that racism doesnt exist anymore because "Look at Oprah"! That stuff makes me cringe. Look at Oprah, but look at New Orleans, South Los Angeles, DC, etc. Yes, the planets aligned which allowed a black man to become president. Eight years of Bush and people were ready for any Democrat to take over. But lets be honest, if Barack had a white wife, we wouldnt even be talking about him right now. Or even if his black wife's name was Shaniqua, we wouldnt know who he is. In a nutshell, comparing today to pre-civil rights, obviously great strides have been made in terms of race relations, but that is not necessarily the reality of every individuals day to day life
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Juli3113

Truth be told please go back and re-read FEHG last few posts in this thread, clearly her statements, several of them, are zooming by you or you just may be not be old enough and experienced enough to understand. Please do not take my last comments about your age and experience as a diss...
 
Hey Malik, you're more than entitled to disagree with me, however to clarify, I am 40 years old, educated, been around the block a few times and have expressed my thoughts accordingly.
 
Juli3113 said:
Rinnaye and FEHG, you are both obviously intelligent and articulate people and in no way am I trying to disparage either of your opinions. I totally agree that a victim mentality in anyone is counterproductive, and I understand what you are saying.
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We Agree!
Juli3113 said:
I just sometimes hear white people make statements that racism doesnt exist anymore because "Look at Oprah"! That stuff makes me cringe.
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Check!
Juli3113 said:
Look at Oprah, but look at New Orleans, South Los Angeles, DC, etc.
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I see much of this plight as a personal responsibility problem, not a "the evil white man" problem.
Juli3113 said:
Yes, the planets aligned which allowed a black man to become president. Eight years of Bush and people were ready for any Democrat to take over.
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I'm not so sure any Dem, would do, as I believe not everyone was ready for Obama, nor was the alternative satisfactory.
Juli3113 said:
But lets be honest, if Barack had a white wife, we wouldnt even be talking about him right now. Or even if his black wife's name was Shaniqua, we wouldnt know who he is.
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That's debatable!
Juli3113 said:
obviously great strides have been made in terms of race relations, but that is not necessarily the reality of every individuals day to day life.
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Your own words may be coming back to haunt you here, but "how would you know?"

Sweetie,

I can't say you're totally off the reservation with your outlook, as I believe you to be a very intelligent, and logical person in every way, and I do understand that not everyone will have the same opinion(s), or outlook on certain topics. And that's ok too. :D
 
Juli

I was thinking the exact same thing that you were. Specifically about the name thing and Obama's wife. And, then I thought of Condoleeza Rice. I don't know a lot about AA names, etc, but it's not a "traditional" name....Anyway. A name has a lot to do with things, that much I agree with, but I don't think it should preclude people from achieving. If every person called Taneisha was a PHD student, do you think the name Taneisha (and similar derivations) would have the same stigma attached to it?

Like I said - I don't think things are equal, and I don't think things are easy. What I'm saying is that the major structures stopping achievement have been removed and legally reversed in some instances....The more time you spend complaining about what you don't have, the less time you have to spend getting what you want.

I don't know about his wife being white. He sure presents the perfect American family, just in black, not white....I can't say that any potential president who has a wife from another ethnic group wouldn't cop some sh*t for it....

And, I wonder whether there would be just as much dislike from the black as well as the white community regarding Obama with a white wife? I don't know - I am just thinking "outloud"...

I guess at the end of the day, I understand what you're saying and we essentially agree on most things. Either way, we both want the same outcome, which is the success of the black community...So, what doesn't matter is the road, but the destination we reach! :)
 
FEHG said:
I was thinking the exact same thing that you were. Specifically about the name thing and Obama's wife. And, then I thought of Condoleeza Rice. I don't know a lot about AA names, etc, but it's not a "traditional" name....Anyway. A name has a lot to do with things, that much I agree with, but I don't think it should preclude people from achieving. If every person called Taneisha was a PHD student, do you think the name Taneisha (and similar derivations) would have the same stigma attached to it?

Like I said - I don't think things are equal, and I don't think things are easy. What I'm saying is that the major structures stopping achievement have been removed and legally reversed in some instances....The more time you spend complaining about what you don't have, the less time you have to spend getting what you want.

I don't know about his wife being white. He sure presents the perfect American family, just in black, not white....I can't say that any potential president who has a wife from another ethnic group wouldn't cop some sh*t for it....

And, I wonder whether there would be just as much dislike from the black as well as the white community regarding Obama with a white wife? I don't know - I am just thinking "outloud"...

I guess at the end of the day, I understand what you're saying and we essentially agree on most things. Either way, we both want the same outcome, which is the success of the black community...So, what doesn't matter is the road, but the destination we reach! :)
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WOW!
 
rinnaye said:
To say you took the words right out of my mouth, would be an understatement!

Or maybe I should say, great minds, think alike!

I Hope that clears things up a lil better for ya. :smt023
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haha. sure. I'm just happy that there's someone out there who gets what I'm saying. :) And, more importantly, realises that it has some worth even though it's not the easy solution. Just because the solution isn't attractive, doesn't mean it won't work! ;)
Hope things are nice wherever it is that you are. :D
 
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