Normally,I wouldn't say this around Black people but...

I Do!

Oops, not "I Do" as in, will you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife..., but "I Do" get what you're saying. *Silly Me!*

Things are very pleasant here in L.A., hope you're doing fine where you are as well.

 

(I told myself I wasnt going to respond to this - im supposed to be retired - but self-restraint has never been my strong suit.)

FEHG, make up your mind. Either racism exists or it doesnt. Stop flip-flopping.

Yeah, I know, its kinda hard to make the argument that racism doesnt exist when you know that it actually does. (Especially when there are white people on this very board who will tell you that they have firsthand knowledge and experience of white people discriminating against blacks.) But if it does exist, that means you have to acknowledge that maybe it isnt just blacks wallowing in self pity and negativity. Maybe there are people, or even a system, that consciously or subconsciously, erects barriers for people of color.

And if thats the case, you cant in good conscience attack the victims like you normally do. (Remember the aborigines?) Perhaps you should examine why white people discriminate instead of spending your time wondering why black people complain about discrimination being a barrier to their success...when you know that discrimination exists and is a barrier to success! Yeah, I know..."its a barrier, but people who want it bad enough wont let it be a barrier to them." :smt017

I didnt come (back) here to attack you, but I feel like you attacked me when you attacked black people as a "failing minority!" Who are you to ascertain the condition of blacks in the U.S. or the world? Have you studied sociology?...the effects of racism, slavery, and jim crow laws on modern america? Based on your posts, I would say no.

And the reason that your posts dont carry any weight isnt because your "just a white female," they are reduced to "guesstamations" (as opposed to educated observations) because you havent developed the ability to see things from other people's perspective. You see things from a white person's point of view, who, "if they work hard, can accomplish what they want." (Yes there is still is a glass ceiling for women, but thats neither here nor there.)

So to break down your posts, what you are saying is, "racism exists...but there are no barriers to success." "Things arent equal...but that inequality should have no effect." "If a black person doesnt succeed its got to be their own fault because their biggest challenge is in their mind and things arent as bad as they think...even though blacks have it tougher than whites,they have more to overcome than whites, and its a harder road for them than for whites. Now mind you...much of this is because of the color of their skin...but skin color shouldnt be an issue because there are laws in place to protect blacks if someone discriminates against them because of the color of their skin. Did I catch everything? :smt023

Of course not all (and probably not most) black people are discriminated against. And yes, there is a LARGE segment that infilcts failure on itself. And maybe thats what you have observed. But dont think that makes you an authority, or even educated enough to know how racism affects black people (or minorities) and the success the have/havent/can/cannot achieve.

Rinnaye...you and I have "danced this dance" and we both know how its gonna end...

 

Wow...now THAT is how you read someone.

 

All very well said JB.

So no more dances!

As far as I'm concerned, whatever differences we may have had in the past, at the end of the day, I've come to believe you to be a very reasonable person that I respect.

Now with regard to FEHG, let me begin by saying, for as long as I've been a member on this forum, I probably never gave more than two thoughts about her presence here whatsoever, with nary even a second thought about any of the many posts she has probably ever made, so I can't speak to her history of "flip flopping" as you put it, but just lately, she has caught my attention, well at least for the moment that is. I think if you focused on what she's saying, and not focus on the color of the person that is saying it, then maybe you'll see that she is at least deserving of her opinion, which is based in part, on her own life's experiences, with at least, some of it being spent amongst black(s). Now you may think her comments, and or statements is her being either very arrogant, or insensitive for expressing her particular views regarding aspects of "our" race, but wouldn't we be just as arrogant for saying she has absolutely no say so whatsoever regarding our plight? Do blacks have a right to believe, and assume whites have it easier, when in fact we are not white, and don't know what it feels like to be born a poor white, live life in a trailer park, and die poor? Try to tell this demographic of whites, how good they had it! But you may believe, and opine otherwise. If a white person can not comment on our situation, then we can't comment on theirs, but how practical, or realistic is that? I think the biggest difference between you, and me (other than our ideological views) are, who has the right to say what, and for me, it doesn't matter what color the person is that speaks what I believe is valid, so long as it is what I believe is the truth. For this, I stand, and agree with her.

 

Damn skippy.

I've used this example in an argument about "white privilege" on this board somewhere, I believe. Certainly some white people have an advantage because of their skin, but not all of us. Socioeconomic status accounts more for privilege than anything else. A rich black man has it better than a poor white man. His life of privilege doesn't rest on his skin color, it's there because of his bank account.

Best privilege a person can have is being born into money, regardless of skin tone.






I know firsthand that racism exists. I've seen it. My cousin is in prison right now for committing a hate crime driven by race. Of course it's out there. Considering the monoracial nature of most families in the US I'd say everyone has either had thoughts at some point that would be considered racist by someone else, or at least witnessed/heard statements that would fall under the category in their own homes. A harmless comment or thought doesn't carry the same weight as a violent hate crime, of course, but racism in itself usually stems from ignorance, and we've all been ignorant about a lot of things in our lives.

What differentiates simple ignorance and racism, though, is the feeling behind it. Good people use ignorance to feed curiousity, and learn about things they don't understand. Bad people turn ignorance into hatred and ill feelings.

What annoys me most is when things get broken down into black and white. There's very little black and white in the world. Most things are like people, in many different shades in between. Wrong, right, up, down, good, bad...it all gets skewed with countless variables depending on situation, environment, etc, etc, etc. That's why discussions like this happen in the first place. People form different opinions of things due to where they grew up, the people around them, the lessons they've learned, the experiences they've had...It's just different perspectives.

Jelly, I always loved reading your posts. You're a smart guy, and you seem really nice which makes you even more awesome.

There are barriers for everyone to overcome. Sometimes due to race, sometimes due to station in life...sometimes due to things that can be changed, sometimes due to things beyond anyone's control. The world is far from perfect, and there are so many people ill affected by things I wish didn't exist that it makes my heart hurt. I don't think they're necessarily trying to downplay the barriers that are still in place for minorities, but rather being disappointed in the people who refuse to allow themselves to try and overcome it. The same kind of disappointment I feel when I'm back home, passing by houses of trash that I know would rather live off the government because they're too lazy to earn an honest living for themselves. These types of disappointing people exist in all races. They're not the only type of poor people who exist, not by a long shot, but they're there, giving the rest of the people around them a bad rep.

We're all given hurdles to overcome in our lives, some seemingly harder than others sometimes. It can come from anything. What defines you as a person isn't what you're handed, but what you do with it.

Or maybe I'm just way too tired and completely missed the point of the discussion! Regardless, I felt like posting so there it is.

P.S. I've missed you Jelly !

 

*Sigh*

Last time I checked, the purpose of this thread was to say "normally, I wouldn't say this around Black people, but..."

And, so, I answered that. I never said I was a sociologist, I never said that I was 100% correct, and I have never said that I understand to the fullest extent what the average AA goes through. I read a lot and have studied a lot of American and Australia history, but it is only an interest and not a qualification. As you have pointed out, I like to keep the middle road. I do not believe things are ever as good as some believe nor as bad as some believe.

I do observe that there are many black people both here (USA) and at home (Australia) that use racism as a crutch for their failure when it was their own attitudes and lack of ambition or whatever that has caused them to not succeed.

And sometimes, it takes an outside person to see things. "can't see the forest for the trees and all that...".

I make my comments from MY OWN experience in MY life....I myself have learnt the hard way that sitting back and complaining and worrying about my situation and/or lack of achievement resulted in me becoming inactive and angry...It was only when I flipped my mind over and re-evaluated my attitude and my position on things that I was able to start living my life in a way that I wanted and achieving what I desired.

Taking a hard look at myself and realising the flaws and tasting that bitter medicine was not a fun time - but I'm glad that I did it and continue to do it, because I BELIEVE that it helps me to be happier and more successful in my life overall.

These comments are not limited to black people, or any people - they are valuable for all people. (in so much that my opinion is valuable and that my experience is valuable). I add in my posts that I believe that racism exists on a personal level but not at a structural level, because that's what I have seen and what I believe. I, therefore, think it is harder for a minority to succeed in that environment than a non-minority (wherever that may be)...But, it's not IMPOSSIBLE any more.

You don't have to agree with me...I'm happy when people don't, because I learn things also...And I thank you for keeping the argument fairly well intellectual.

As for Aboriginies. If you have any solution, I would like to hear it. And I mean that in all sincerity. It's a problem that no-one has been able to fix thus far. I would like to go home and try and assist the people if I could.

 

I agree with all of this. And, no, I don't think you have missed the point of the discussion.

 

Whatever you do, please don't stop posting.

Not sure why I haven't noticed you before now, but maybe I should have. I really enjoy reading your posts friend.

 

Maybe it takes a person from the outside to see the "forest for the trees" but you are not that person. You dont have to be a sociologist to truely understand institutional racism. Just pick up a book and do a little reading, instead of relying on your narrow scope of personal experiences.

And yes, institutional racism still exists. Dont believe me? Take a look at minority hiring practices in college and professional football in the united states.

No, Im not gonna provide you any links. Do your own homework.

 

Thanks, DH. Ive missed you and qiute a few other members here, but its time to return to my rabbit hole.

 

then you need to get on myspace or something, foo.

 

Come back Jelly! I appreciate your intellect...

 

Hi everyone. I have been gone a few weeks! I moved to Maryland! Anyway- I just have a couple of comments. And remember the title of the thread people!!! I sometimes wish that some black people didn't think everything is race related! I once had a boyfriend that thought people were staring at us everywhere we went. ( From my opinion they weren't) . He was extremely paranoid about it!!
One other point is-my boyfriend is Nigerian and has lived in the states since 1990. He came to the states by himself and put himself through college here and graduate school, and therefore he doesn't understand why the African American community doesn't apply themselves more.-(this is his opinion). He said when he came here he realized he was black and had a heavy accent- and he knew he would have to work very hard and he accepted that. He said he didn't view it as a negative thing-just the facts. I can't judge the black experience-as I am white. I just try to honestly see others points of view. My boyfriend also started a new job about six weeks ago. He says the there is an african american female manager under him and she is manipulating and does crazy things and does not do her job. He says she has been working there 15 years and thinks she can do anything. He says the ceo and president are both white, and he says he thinks the reason they haven't gotten rid of her is because you can't fire an african american without them screaming racism. He said he said to them -I am black I can fire this lady! He said she is truly a piece of work. So sometimes- I truly think black people don't understand where white people are coming from! There are miscommunications from both sides.

 

Wow! I've been watching this thread, this is exactly the type of discussion I came here to observe, and to learn from! Thank you both FEGH & Rinnaye for the intellectual stimulation!!

This could be said about anyone with a "victim mentality" I've seen a lot of this same thought process amongst poor Whites and Hispanics.

Exactly why I stated previously (and you disagreed with me) that this election was NOT about race.

Well said, I worked the 2000 census here in So. AZ and I was quite happy to see persons of black color who preferred NOT to check the boxes stating their "race" but chose to state that they were "Americans" because the only other applicable race box said African-American, and they took issue with being called something other than American. I thought it showed they weren't all hung up on race as an issue, that they wanted to thought of as regular people without the stereotypes. I respected that, (I know some will not).

Yes, let's please just go forward.

So right on!! (White people in America have eyes too.)

Very well said! Women have to think that way also in some circles in order to succeed, and complaining doesn't get us anywhere!

Again DITTO!!

WOW!! Now that will be interesting!! I for one am looking forward to the day!

OK, that's where we disagree! Success of any kind requires a great effort, I do not think Obama had a whole lot more to overcome than McCain. (Yes it was a lot of years ago, but 5 years being tortured, as a POW is not a small thing). We can't say how much it was until we've walked in that person's shoes, I think Hillary has overcome more than many women I know. (I don't know many who could stand going though what Bill put her though in the public eye, with such grace, most of us would have pulled a Lorena Babbitt.)

Really??

Our current President George W Bush, is in fact in an IR relationship, his wife is Hispanic, I didn't see an issue with it. Oh, my does that mean that Laura Bush was indeed the first "First Lady" of other than white ethnicity?? Why didn't we hear all about making history 8 years ago?? Just an observation!

So really we all agree then?

Thank you for the vote of confidence in the WW brain!! PLEASE do write that book soon, and I want a signed copy too...:smt089

DH - you have a wonderful thought process, and I for one appreciate your patience with people who disagree with you. I totally agree with you here. I do know racism exists but if people are honest about it there are a great many people in minorities that are racist against whites also.

My ex-husband was very racist, and it was a huge part of the reasons for our divorce, he was racist against Americans in general, if you can call that racist, and more against the whites. He went so far as trying to burn our flag shortly after 9/11!

 

Fair enough, if you think so, that's ok...I always said it was just my opinion. Just because my experience and observation doesn't accord with yours, however, doesn't mean my opinion has no value. There's a little truth in everything, even if it's 99% wrong.

And I will follow up on those things, and no I don't need your help with my "homework". I'm quite capable of doing it on my own, thanks very much.

Thanks Rinnaye...I appreciate that.
I do believe that Jelly is right in some regard, however...you can never be too learned - so I will go and do some further research and observation and give more weight and quality to my argument.

I guess this is why the thread was titled "i would never say this in front of a black person, but..."....because I can't say any of it in front of a black person. That's why I put it on here!

 

Welcome back, homegirl, I was wondering about you.
Nice to know everything is good

 

Dammit! This is why I have a problem with a lot of conservative white people...because they look at the world thru rose-colored glasses. No one said that racism controls everything and that ALL BLACK PEOPLE suffer from racism.

But people like tinkerbell and shyandsweet are the reason why the shit is worse that what it should be instead of getting better. Now instead of accepting something that they know exists, which means that maybe...just maybe...there are black people who might receive unfavorable treatment because of the color their skin and addressing those instances, they attack ANY AND EVERYONE who says they are discriminated against as whiners and playing the victim.

Yes, there are black people who are not fired from their jobs because of the color of their skin, and conservatives love to run with shit like that. Well what about white people who are HIRED because of the color of their skin? Havent thought about that, have you? No, because you dont have to ability to see the big picture.

Conservatives live in this world where there are no victims. Just the weak. They think that just because the firehoses and police dogs are gone that everything is "all good." They think that because they know a few black people and minorities and they have seen them unjustly play the victim, that the problem is those whiny minorities instead of realizing that racism exists and to ignore those trying to take advantage of the system. (Let me guess...only minorities take advantage the system.)

Let me ask you ladies...when was the last time you walked into a building and said, "Wow someone in a wheelchair or with a physical disability would have a lot of trouble navigating around this building. The doorways and aisles are way too narrow." Excatly! So what makes you think that you can identify with one group as opposed to another. As a person who is not physically disabled, you really cant identify or put your finger on their struggles. But black people and minorities...youve got them pegged.

Shyandsweet, black people know exactly where white people are coming from because we live in a white world. White people such as yourself dont want to understand black people who might have a beef with living in a white world. And when I say white world, I mean a world where the rights of minorities are not protected. Dont cherry-pick a situation here and there and say the problem is black people.

Its easy to attack black people, because they are not like you. If you want to make things better, stop worrying about the victim end of the equation. (There will always be people look to take advantage of situations.) Why dont you try something new as a conservative white, attack those employers who do discriminate...like college presidents and boosters who have developed a system where only white men are afforded the opprotunity of being a head coach in college football. But Im sure thats something you dont want to address because then you would have to attack white people like yourself.

Again, not everyone is a victim. But there are victims. But dismissing the problem only makes it worse. It encourages others that they can practice the same behavior.

 

I'm not a conservative white so it's all good.
I agree with almost all of your posts. :smt001 Very intelligent.

 

Ok, Jelly - I understand your point, and agree to a certain extent.

What is your opinion, then, of those minorities who "cry wolf" for example. I would think this would cause problems also...Such that when a real case occurs it isn't dealt with as thoroughly or correctly as it should be, because the system and society is so muddied with a hundred false cries?

And, before you say that I don't know what I'm talking about - I would note that I am not making an ascertation, I am asking you a question as someone who is talking on the topic, from your educated point of view. I am here to learn, after all.

 

All people who cry wolf need their asses kicked! Just as those who discriminate need their asses kicked!

My problem is that there is a large group of people who take joy in kicking the asses of those who cry wolf, but put aways their shit-kickers when its time to kick the asses of those who discriminate.

Racism and discrimination are problems that have to be attacked from both ends.