I loved everything about this post but your mention of "white" men. Those things happened in EVERY ancient society - Egyptians, Mayans, Incans, African, Asian.... Can we just keep the "white" out of it? It's MEN not just white men in this instance.
I understand that it all adds up and I understand that I am not a parent but that has nothing to do with my sense of fairness and justice. You aren't black but you can see a black person getting stoned and recognize that as a horrible act even though you aren't black and have never been stoned. I am sorry that many of you have dealt with men who don't seem to be paying there fair share. I am sorry that you while you could have been a career you chose to stay home with the kids, but seriously wasn't that you're choice. Even if you both as a family agreed to it you chose to comply. You chose to be home each day, in fact you chose to have children in the first place. I don't have any children but it doesn't mean that I can't recognize how much of a blessing they can be but you deciding to care for them at home doesn't make you a martyr. Enough of the women on this thread make it seem that because they are doing what nature intended them to do it entitles you to something. I know I am going to be under heavy fire for saying this but there is truth and logic behind what I say. Suspend your emotions for a moment as I know that this is a personal issue for many of you but lets look at this as business because lets face it that's what marriage is at this point. We can look at the house hold as business which many of us have if you've taken Econ 101, and in the house hold each member has a duty in which to keep the business running. The male might work to keep cash flow going because with out you wouldn't be able to have the roof over your head or food to eat. The female might stay at home with the kids and take care of the cleaning and cooking. Each member contributes to keep the business a float both are equal partners. So if both members decide to dissolve the partnership why is one partner held accountable for the well being of the other person. Child support is a totally different issue, you both brought them into the world so both should be responsible for that. I know many of you have brought up the claim of time lost where you could have been building another career well look at the automotive industry today in America. 30 years ago working for GM as a union worker was a really good job to have. Now as we all know its pretty much going under and they have had to lay off a large number of people. Those people worked hard for the company providing a service that the company wanted but at a point the company decided they no longer needed their services and cut ties giving them a severance package for many years of valued service. Now that the auto industry is going under in this country should GM give a monthly stipend to workers even though the services are no longer needed. I hope you guys read between the lines on that one.
I agree with you. Women definitely open themselves up to rejection as well but as far as dating is concerned its more so men lets be honest. I think women face rejection on a much more hurtful level because a lot of their rejection comes later in life after they've already settled down and the man they were with for decades decides he wants someone younger and more bubbly especially after said man has taken some of the best years of her life and now wants to discard her. So in that respect I really feel for women. Men can always be more successful and get more money thus allowing them to remain attractive but unfortunately in our vain and looks obsessed culture women don't usually have the same options.
Comparing the raising of children to building Cars for a company shows that you obviously aren't a parent. I think if a man is decent (ie has his childrens best interests at heart) he will foot the bill to keep the woman in an accomadating position, if he doesn't he should be made to pay, like bookie said as the primary care giver you are first to be called ( away from work) to attend to that child, that is going to reflect on your career. Just because a man is no longer a family unit does not mean that the family cease to exist, if they are his children he should pay for them to be in the best position possible, if that means backing up the Mother financialy also then so be it. I personally think men who shirk there responsibilities for no good reason other than "why should I" should be imprisioned as you would be if you owed a fine/payment to the goverment, excluding certain circumstances off course.
First of all, let's clear the air. I, personally, was never a stay-at-home Mom. I have been a working Mom since my daughter was 4 months old. Therefore, I have been contributing to my Social Security as well as to a 401K plan. However, that does not mean that I cannot see the situation from a stay-at-home parent point of view. You honestly cannot use the GM example in this equation. Why? Because they were paid a SEVERANCE PACKAGE. So, by that logic, a stay-at-home parent should also be paid a severance package after the dissolution of marriage. Do you understand that these people put in their time for a company and when they were laid off (as when anyone is laid off) they get a monetary payment to help them out after losing their jobs? Same should go for the stay-at-home parent. They should also be rewarded a monetary payment for their time served as part of the "company" of the family. Your logic is not sound. You should really stop trying to make your point. You truly have no clue what you're talking about here. Also, I'll add this: when I divorced my first husband, he made mid six figures, we had no children and I worked during our marriage. I was also asked if I wanted alimony from him during the divorce proceedings. Why should I get alimony? I turned it down. So, if your whole argument is based on anger at your mom for wanting alimony from your dad, then you really should take that up with your mom and not the lovely women on this board who are schooling you on the ways of the real world.
What you say is the reason, why we have in Germany too less children. Women are no longer willing to lead that discussion. A man wants a family and if it doesn´t work , the fight starts about money. Either a woman can take care for her child alone, or no child will be there. Men make themselves needless. The other point is that my child would never pay the bill for my faults. I would not give it to a childhome 10-12 hours a day or leave it at home half a day after school, because I have to earn money and a nanny is too expensive and my ex-husband sees no reason to support in that situation.
Bookie I am only going to say this once never again bring my mother or my family into any of our discussions, it's completely out of bounds and uncalled for. And if you read what I wrote I said that I side with my mother but fair is fair. Second the severance package would be half the assets you dim wit. A one time payment for services rendered. Not the monthly stipend of alimony which in most cases, at least in NY, goes for either half the time of the marriage or the entire time of the marriage. So my analogy makes perfect sense. Re-read it, take your time this time sweetheart.
I think maybe your experience with your parents has left you a bit jaded Andrae, and that's understandable given the circumstances. So I'm just gonna say it's hard when the people doing the fighting are both people you love, and you feel you have to take a side, or you believe one is clearly in the wrong. Sorry for your pain sugar. :smt056
ARE YOU PEOPLE CHOOSING TO IGNORE WHAT I WRITE. EVERYTHING YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FALLS UNDER CHILD SUPPORT AND I SAID I'M ALL FOR THAT. MAKING SURE THAT I ALLEVIATE OR MAKE YOUR SITUATION EASIER SHOULDN'T BE THE MAN'S RESPONSIBILITY. AND AS FAR AS A SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE TO LEAVE WORK, SPLIT THE RESPONSIBILITY LIKE TWO LEVEL ADULTS WOULD DO. SHEESH.
Espy we've had this discussion on here before. My parents decision to divorce was as recent as last week. It doesn't reflect on my opinions at all. I'm 28 them not being together doesn't effect my home life, all it means is I will have two places to go to on holidays now. No big deal. I honestly think my logic is sound and I welcome anyone to dispute it without using emotional responses to support their arguement. As I have said before I do not claim to know everything but I am intelligent and can observe a situation fairly and unbiased. I have never said that the responsibility of a child shouldn't be shared but I have a hard time understanding the entitlement some women feel. Why am should a male be responsible to help maintain your life style after the end of a relationship. Is he not equally entitled to have his life easier especially with the money he earns himself.
Fine Andrae, if you want my personal non-emotional take on alimony. I have a problem with anyone thinking they are entitled to something someone else earned, which is why I'm a big fan of pre nups. Now there are obviously going to be exceptions to that rule, if a woman works her ass off so her husband can finish med school, then I feel she contributed to his ability to become a doctor and therefore she's entitled to a 'severance package' if you will. But if the situation is reversed and it's the man putting the woman through med school, I feel he should get the same 'severance package'. As for monthly alimony, honestly I'm against it. Now part of that may be due to the fact that in Oklahoma you pay alimony until the ex-spouse remarries, and so they can shack up with someone and never remarry and you pay it until they are dead. I think that's completely inappropriate. Furthermore, I wouldn't ask for or accept alimony under any circumstances, I prefer to earn my own way. Child support is another matter, and I do think both parents should contribute to raising their children. However, I personally refused child support from my ex because I knew it would create a hardship for him financially and I don't need his financial assistance. That in no way is indicative of my thinking other women or men should do the same. The only person's situation that I am qualified to comment on is mine, I'm not in anyone else's shoes and therefore I'm not in a position to question anything they've done. I think it's fine to offer your opinion, and to defend it vigorously, but I think you shouldn't presume to apply it across the board. There are likely instances where if you had all the facts, you might feel an exception was warranted.
I totally agree with you. I know that certain cases are different and should be dealt with accordingly but current laws deal in generalization with consideration to circumstances but over all dealt with in a general sense.
Agreed, no two divorcing couples are going to have the same set of circumstances and therefore trying to apply a strict set of inflexible rules isn't the best approach IMO. I think a lot of the divorce laws are rigid because typically the people divorcing aren't in the best frame of mind. I'm a reasonable person and divorce didn't suspend my sense of logic, but you'd be surprised how many people just go completely bonkers. Oklahoma requires a court mandated session for all couples divorcing with minor children involved and you have to attend with your soon to be Ex, and they schedule all the couples who filed for divorce around the same time to attend together. Whomever thought that up was a flat out moron... let's take around a hundred men and women who pretty much hate each other and toss them in a room together and then tell them how to be good parents... yeah that's a real good idea. I'm telling you if I hadn't known we were in a courtroom, I would have assumed I'd gotten teleported to an asylum. People were all up in each other's faces, staring daggers, and cussing each other out. So after that I did have a better appreciation for why divorce laws are fixed, because I'd guess the chances of getting most of those people to sit down and have a productive discussion to be about as good as hell freezing over. It's sad that people can't act like adults, but sadly when their emotions are involved, sometimes sanity is hard to find.
I'm afraid I can't leave the white out of it. I'm not speaking of ancient societies, I'm talking about the last few hundred years, from my perspective as an American Woman. Our dating and marriage traditions are not simply relics of thousands of years ago. Nobody's bringing a chaperone and a dowery to speed dating. These traditions have been established and reinforced as recently as a few decades ago, and they are highly specific to the Western World. It was White Men who refused to vote for the Equal Rights Amendment over and over in every Congress between 1923 and 1982. It wasn't Black Men or Hispanic Men or Asian Men -- the White Man in America was maintaining inequality against them as well. They did not have the power to do to Women what was being done to them. Black Men and Asian Men and Hispanic Men and Native American Men were not running the Congress, they never had the chance to choose to vote against Equal Rights for Women. It was White Men who denied White Women property rights, straight through until the 1988, prior to which a Woman could be denied the right to sign a business loan for her own business. Women business owners in 1987 had to have their 18-year-old sons sign their business loans for them. That was White Men who did that. Men of color had nothing to do with those laws. It was White Men who denied Women the right to vote. It was White Men who deemed until the 80's and 90's that raping one's wife in the Western World was legal. It was White Men who kept Women out of whole industries. It was White Men who declared a Woman in the US or UK could be a cook but never a chef. It was White Men who declared Women were inferior, just as they declared all people of color inferior. It was White Men who called us witches and burned us at the stake. It was White Men who labeled us whores and insane when we spoke out against their establishment. It was White Men who created the traditions of Western Society that hold a Man's word as more valuable than a Woman's. It was White Men who treated western Women as property, and White Men who abused that property and White Men who excused that abuse. "Oh chicity, you sound like you hate White Men" -- no I sound like I'm listing historic facts. The Jewish People say "Never forget" and neither should we. We must remember what has happened to us, even in our own lifetimes. We must remember who did it, and why, and what our foremothers did to fight it. Lumping all of mankind in, as if all men had a hand in the oppression of Women, is to rewrite history. Until very recently, it was not within the realm of possibility for Men who were not White Men to oppress Women or create the traditions that stem from that oppression, because Me who were not White were being oppressed themselves.
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