Random Conversation 2.0

[The Dark King]

A good idea or his moral duty, and what is the statute of limitations on that moral duty when you directly witness a ten year old child being sodomized by an adult male and see nothing meaningful done?

In such a blatant instance, screw your protocols and chain of command. If I witness something like that, I'm not calling my daddy or Joe Paterno. The rape ends at that moment and the police are there immediately afterwards.

Trust me when I tell you this would have been a completely different conversation had the victim been a 20something female student. But its a purely defenseless 10 year old child protocol has to be followed to the letter. Hypocrites make absolutely sick to my stomach especially in instances like this because if it were your child who had been RAPED you'd want immediate police action or at the very least notify the fucking parents but just" having faith" that the university would act against its own interests is plain dumb. I'm so done with certain members on here.

 

[TheHuntress]

It seems pretty far fetched that a major University would have a policy of notifying a supervisor, in cases where an employee witnesses a rape or any other serious crime against people or property. I'd have to see it to believe it, as the realities of such a policy weigh against the University's desire to control the flow of information, and for what reason, cover up. Practically, speedy notification would have led to potentially fewer assaults, and in particular a preservation of the crime scene in the rape that was witnessed.

Imagine the lawsuits that will emerge from these incidents and the questions that'll be asked about the responsibility of this employee. What parent would accept the idea that the safety of their children is being compromised when employees witness crimes like sexual assault, kidnapping, beatings, arson, etc, because the witness has to notify a supervisor first.

The harm to the University's reputation, fund raising, new student enrollment and liability are all at stake at this juncture.

A good idea or his moral duty, and what is the statute of limitations on that moral duty when you directly witness a ten year old child being sodomized by an adult male and see nothing meaningful done?

In such a blatant instance, screw your protocols and chain of command. If I witness something like that, I'm not calling my daddy or Joe Paterno. The rape ends at that moment and the police are there immediately afterwards.

Well, Im speaking in terms of the conversations people are having about why paterno was fired, and not on my personal views. I'm keeping my personal views out of it as I run the risk of some people saying that personal experience is clouding my judgement.

 

[TheHuntress]

Trust me when I tell you this would have been a completely different conversation had the victim been a 20something female student. But its a purely defenseless 10 year old child protocol has to be followed to the letter. Hypocrites make absolutely sick to my stomach especially in instances like this because if it were your child who had been RAPED you'd want immediate police action or at the very least notify the fucking parents but just" having faith" that the university would act against its own interests is plain dumb. I'm so done with certain members on here.

If it were a 20 year old student, It would be a different conversation. Age of consent ring a bell? You dont even know what you're talking about.

I do know that working as a student with kids, legally, I was to report anything suspicious to my direct supervisor. That's what my contracts said. So, while you can argue all day about what should have been done, and who should have been fired, the fact is that reporting to paterno was the correct course of action, and him not firing sandusky and notifying police immediately is on him. Legally. Morally, that can be argued all day. But I again will not bring personal opinion into that part.

 

[nocturnalmission]

As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere..." The first breakdown and failure of justice for the victim happened with the first person who discovered the rape in progress; namely the gutless wonder (grad student) who witnessed the incident in progress and didn't stop it as it was going on and (if necessary) whip some azz (if warranted) before calling the police himself... In my mind's eye that would have been the right and moral thing to do, regardless of any university "policy" written or unwritten...

I have no sympathy for Paterno or any of the other heads that rolled after the fact. In the aftermath of that initial incident, even if that was considered "isolated" at the time, they did nothing about that incident and let a cat into the canary cage and kept silent, while the perpetrator established a "farm" of potential victims, putting more children at risk.

IMO, Penn State is only trying to minimize the financial damage it will incur resulting from its role when the "lights" came on by trying to react in the aftermath rather than act when things first came to light... At least three people in the Penn State inner circle, with the power to do something, did the one thing beneficial for themselves and the university - nothing... Money over developing minds...

But that grad student failed that child in the shower... Telling somebody else and leaving it to continue was not something a man with a heart and conscience would have done and as the information got passed forward, the "good old boy" network dressed down and covered up for one of its own. True injustice!

 

[swirlman07]

I do know that working as a student with kids, legally, I was to report anything suspicious to my direct supervisor. That's what my contracts said. So, while you can argue all day about what should have been done, and who should have been fired, the fact is that reporting to paterno was the correct course of action, and him not firing sandusky and notifying police immediately is on him. Legally. Morally, that can be argued all day. But I again will not bring personal opinion into that part.

Except that you make several critical areas in your comments. First, you continue to lean on your contract as a basis for actions that you were expect to take in certain situations. There's nothing to suggest that this graduate student was bound by a similar contract, or any contract. By the way, you weren't "legally" bound to notify your supervisor. If you failed to notify him/her and called the police directly, you would not have been prosecuted for a crime. You were contractually bound and therefore could have been fired at most.

You also completely overlook the fact that, by your own admission, you were to contact your supervisor to report anything "suspicious", which suggests that those suspicions may or not give rise to an illegal act. There's nothing "suspicious" about witnessing a rape. It's an actual crime in progress, and therefore demands a different response. I've already said that I don't believe for a moment that University protocol was an issue in the least, or even that an "unwritten rule" controlled his actions, only his fear, non-action and concern about the football program.

The ONLY correct response to having witnessed a sexual assault of a minor, or of any person, was intervention, period. Lacking the courage to take that action, he was morally bound to contact the police himself. In that regard, he was directly responsible for the consequences of any further assaults by the perpetrator, and IMO was complicit by virtue of his not notifying the police. He should be fired on this basis. Notifying his supervisor also didn't let him off the hook for the his moral misstep.

 

[TheHuntress]

Except that you make several critical areas in your comments. First, you continue to lean on your contract as a basis for actions that you were expect to take in certain situations. There's nothing to suggest that this graduate student was bound by a similar contract, or any contract. By the way, you weren't "legally" bound to notify your supervisor. If you failed to notify him/her and called the police directly, you would not have been prosecuted for a crime. You were contractually bound and therefore could have been fired at most.

You also completely overlook the fact that, by your own admission, you were to contact your supervisor to report anything "suspicious", which suggests that those suspicions may or not give rise to an illegal act. There's nothing "suspicious" about witnessing a rape. It's an actual crime in progress, and therefore demands a different response. I've already said that I don't believe for a moment that University protocol was an issue in the least, or even that an "unwritten rule" controlled his actions, only his fear, non-action and concern about the football program.

The ONLY correct response to having witnessed a sexual assault of a minor, or of any person, was intervention, period. Lacking the courage to take that action, he was morally bound to contact the police himself. In that regard, he was directly responsible for the consequences of any further assaults by the perpetrator, and IMO was complicit by virtue of his not notifying the police. He should be fired on this basis. Notifying his supervisor also didn't let him off the hook for the his moral misstep.

Ok swirl. I have no idea what my contracts said in terms of legality. So glad you were looking over my shoulder during my first jobs working with kids when I was 16, 17, 18, and 19. And apparently you were there when I taught in NC, too. I didn't say anything else.

Have a nice day.

 

[The Dark King]

If it were a 20 year old student, It would be a different conversation. Age of consent ring a bell? You dont even know what you're talking about.

I do know that working as a student with kids, legally, I was to report anything suspicious to my direct supervisor. That's what my contracts said. So, while you can argue all day about what should have been done, and who should have been fired, the fact is that reporting to paterno was the correct course of action, and him not firing sandusky and notifying police immediately is on him. Legally. Morally, that can be argued all day. But I again will not bring personal opinion into that part.

Seriously how thick can one individual be? Age of consent? It was a rape Ms Patron Saint Of Victims. Age of consent means nothing. It wasn't statutory.it was full on no I don't want to do this rape. You are thhe absolute most hypocritcal liar I have ever met in my life. The fact you actually tried to make that argument says so much about you right now. If you saw a group of kids stomping the shit out of another kid would you call the cops or tell a supervisor. If you saw a kid overdose on sleeping pills would you call 911 or call a supervisor? Damn DB I can say.... never mind just never mind.

 

[wtarshi]

Girl, I was wondering that too.....he sure disappeared.....

there should be a law against it....there just should

He probably works in a shoe store now. He used to post the most fabulous pix of shoes in the Women's Feet thread!

sounds like a dream job for him. that or working for porn

I know.

you know, as in you know something & need to tell me, or you know, as in you know that it's sad that he's not around?

 

[z]

Paterno the gutless coach led Pen state for 46 yrs while aiding and setting up a shop for rapist sandusky.

I hope big Bubba bends Sandusky and the PSU official fuck 'em in da ass raw in penitentiary and teach them a lesson. How do you like dem apples crazy JoePa fans??.

 

[christine dubois]

I was just thinking..isn't it fascinating that it is evening/night in my time, afternoon for others and for some it is morning..and we have the possibility to talk to each other..we don't know, if some of us get up funny, nice or depressed..we don't even know, what's going on in their life..
and I remember a guy that appreciated exactly that.. I miss him, would like to know, if he is fine

 

[wtarshi]

the whole joe paterno, jerry sandusky and the rapes hasn't made news over here, but from what i can understand from the posts here is that this jerry person raped and sodomised boys for years, with it being known as it was witnessed & no-one ever called the police. is that it? and now there is rioting because this joepa is being mistreated in the eyes of some, because he's been fired for knowing about the rapes and sodomy and never reporting it to the police?
how can what a man has done for a college and football be compared to enabling a rapist?
when did college football become more important than the well being and life of a child?
when has covering up or turning a blind eye to abuse ever right?
everyone who knew about the abuse or was involved in anyway should be thrown in jail.

 

[Morning Star]

Funny you should say that. I actually befriended someone from a while back who has done compositions of video game remixes and some of his original work. Mahler is his biggest inspiration and he tends to be very critical of what he called "Media Venture" composers because, according to him, they all sound the same. Jeremy Robson is his name. He also has his SoundClick and OverClocked Remix profiles to his resume. I highly suggest the Final Fantasy 7 Philharmonic Suites first and then Kefka's Adagio.

I went through a Tchaikovsky phase, would even listen to The Nutcracker Suite in the middle of July. Check out Mahler's Fifth, especially the fourth movement (Adagietto) and Brahms Third.

Nice selection! I have some others, but they are mainly game composers like Motoi Sakuraba, Hitoshi Sakimoto, Koji Kondo...to name a few.

My three favorite composers:
Yoko Kanno
Joe Hisaishi
Clint Mansell

Bro, you and I would be jamming to some Chopin and Strauss someday?

Props, any other recommendations would be appreciated. I just downloaded 50 Strauss must have family pieces and The 99 Most Essential Mozart pieces for a total of $4 off Amazon.com

:smt020

 

[TheHuntress]

Seriously how thick can one individual be? Age of consent? It was a rape Ms Patron Saint Of Victims. Age of consent means nothing. It wasn't statutory.it was full on no I don't want to do this rape. You are thhe absolute most hypocritcal liar I have ever met in my life. The fact you actually tried to make that argument says so much about you right now. If you saw a group of kids stomping the shit out of another kid would you call the cops or tell a supervisor. If you saw a kid overdose on sleeping pills would you call 911 or call a supervisor? Damn DB I can say.... never mind just never mind.

Kids vs adults.

Again. Apples and oranges.

And legally, teachers aren't allowed to intervene in a fight. At least they weren't in the districts *I* worked in. All we could do is stand behind and keep other kids from trying to jump in.

 

[Mikey]

Kids vs adults.

Again. Apples and oranges.

And legally, teachers aren't allowed to intervene in a fight. At least they weren't in the districts *I* worked in. All we could do is stand behind and keep other kids from trying to jump in.

Those are some pretty illogical rules.

And I'm sure an overwhelming amount of school districts in America do not have that rule in effect. It's common sense for an adult to intervene when the kids fight.

The districts that you work in are not representative of all of America.

But you will probably ignore this and disregard the message? Heck, what does a teenager know about things only grown-ups should be aware of?

 

[TheHuntress]

Let me be clear on some things here...

I think the fact that people think JoePa got screwed are idiots.

Do I think McQ had zero responsibility? No. However, when it comes down to the legal side of things, the fact that he was a student, no matter what his age was, and reported it to people considered to be authorities is likely why he still has his job- at least so far. And I understand that, because I understand what it's like to be the person on both sides (authority and student). That's all I'm saying...and keep in mind, I'm talking about the initial report, which is where a lot of this stuff is coming from, and it's been the focus of the conversations here.

Did I ever say that I agreed with him not stepping in? No. Did I ever say I supported him? No. If that's the impression I gave, it was a mistake. I've been typing from my phone, so I guess I wasn't as articulate as I could've been.

Having been on the side of the boys, I can say that I know how damaging an event like that can be on your life. And I can also say that people are idiots when it comes to this...the righteous indignation is almost too much. "Why didn't you run? Why didn't you kick him in the balls? Why didn't you call the police?" ..."*I* would have punched him in the balls and called the police, you can be certain of that!!"....Oh, can I? Can I really? I hope you never have to find out. I truly don't. You don't know what you're going to do until you do it, and you certainly never know what that will be until it's happening to you. The same goes for the people screaming that McQ should've done x, y, and z.

SHOULD he have done x, y, and z? Absolutely. I never said he SHOULDN'T have. Did he? No. Does that make it right? No, it doesn't. But, it's not difficult to comprehend how someone low on the totem pole, who also played football for Penn State, likely idolized both Sandusky and Paterno, who walked into that situation thought nothing but 'oh my god, oh my god, oh my god' and then did the next best thing he could think of and told his father what he saw, and then did as his father suggested and told Paterno and other ranking officials at the university.

Do I think he should have called the police if he didn't see any action taking place to remove Sandusky? I certainly think that. Do I understand the reasoning behind why someone doesn't do what is expected? Yes, I do. Does that make it right? No. People were arguing that he should be fired for his lack of action, and at the initial report, I disagree. The INITIAL report, mind you. Once he was officially a member of the coaching team, I believe he does have responsibility and blood on his hands for those boys. But, that initial report, when he reported it to Paterno? There shouldn't have been time for McQ to GET that blood on his hands as a member of the coaching staff. They should have done something immediately. No excuses there...which is why they have lost their jobs.

This incident is so much larger than who is to blame. It is so much bigger than who should have done what and all the finger-pointing that is going on. What's being forgotten is the victims, who would have been the focus of this entire thing all alone. Instead, everyone wants to exonerate Paterno because of him being a beloved football coach, which is just another example of the poison of sports culture in the country. People are more interested in the number of wins than the number of victims who have suffered.

 

[TheHuntress]

Those are some pretty illogical rules.

And I'm sure an overwhelming amount of school districts in America do not have that rule in effect. It's common sense for an adult to intervene when the kids fight.

The districts that you work in are not representative of all of America.

But you will probably ignore this and disregard the message? Heck, what does a teenager know about things only grown-ups should be aware of?

It's meant to protect teachers from lawsuits. If you break up a fight, and say, you accidentally elbow a kid trying to restrain another, they can sue you and you'll most likely lose..and lose big.

I didn't say it made sense or that I agreed with it.

And I'm sure if you asked any teachers in any high school in any state in the country, most of them would tell you that some variation of this rule is in effect.

 

[Mikey]

It's meant to protect teachers from lawsuits. If you break up a fight, and say, you accidentally elbow a kid trying to restrain another, they can sue you and you'll most likely lose..and lose big.

I didn't say it made sense or that I agreed with it.

And I'm sure if you asked any teachers in any high school in any state in the country, most of them would tell you that some variation of this rule is in effect.

There are School Resource Officers (basically a police officer) that are in the school. At least when I was in high school, one of them existed. The school's police officer can intervene and stop the fight if it were to happen.

Let me be clear on some things here...

I think the fact that people think JoePa got screwed are idiots.

Do I think McQ had zero responsibility? No. However, when it comes down to the legal side of things, the fact that he was a student, no matter what his age was, and reported it to people considered to be authorities is likely why he still has his job- at least so far. And I understand that, because I understand what it's like to be the person on both sides (authority and student). That's all I'm saying...and keep in mind, I'm talking about the initial report, which is where a lot of this stuff is coming from, and it's been the focus of the conversations here.

Did I ever say that I agreed with him not stepping in? No. Did I ever say I supported him? No. If that's the impression I gave, it was a mistake. I've been typing from my phone, so I guess I wasn't as articulate as I could've been.

Having been on the side of the boys, I can say that I know how damaging an event like that can be on your life. And I can also say that people are idiots when it comes to this...the righteous indignation is almost too much. "Why didn't you run? Why didn't you kick him in the balls? Why didn't you call the police?" ..."*I* would have punched him in the balls and called the police, you can be certain of that!!"....Oh, can I? Can I really? I hope you never have to find out. I truly don't. You don't know what you're going to do until you do it, and you certainly never know what that will be until it's happening to you. The same goes for the people screaming that McQ should've done x, y, and z.

SHOULD he have done x, y, and z? Absolutely. I never said he SHOULDN'T have. Did he? No. Does that make it right? No, it doesn't. But, it's not difficult to comprehend how someone low on the totem pole, who also played football for Penn State, likely idolized both Sandusky and Paterno, who walked into that situation thought nothing but 'oh my god, oh my god, oh my god' and then did the next best thing he could think of and told his father what he saw, and then did as his father suggested and told Paterno and other ranking officials at the university.

Do I think he should have called the police if he didn't see any action taking place to remove Sandusky? I certainly think that. Do I understand the reasoning behind why someone doesn't do what is expected? Yes, I do. Does that make it right? No. People were arguing that he should be fired for his lack of action, and at the initial report, I disagree. The INITIAL report, mind you. Once he was officially a member of the coaching team, I believe he does have responsibility and blood on his hands for those boys. But, that initial report, when he reported it to Paterno? There shouldn't have been time for McQ to GET that blood on his hands as a member of the coaching staff. They should have done something immediately. No excuses there...which is why they have lost their jobs.

This incident is so much larger than who is to blame. It is so much bigger than who should have done what and all the finger-pointing that is going on. What's being forgotten is the victims, who would have been the focus of this entire thing all alone. Instead, everyone wants to exonerate Paterno because of him being a beloved football coach, which is just another example of the poison of sports culture in the country. People are more interested in the number of wins than the number of victims who have suffered.

One of the articles I remember reading in the newspapers, written by a woman, stated that the whole situation could've been avoided if only the assistant coach that walked in on the old guy stepped out and called 911. This was in 2002. Instead, the molesting acts from those guys continued on. Several of them happened during the Summer of 2005.

I agree with ur last paragraph. And even then, here are Penn State's tuition figures and costs. It's like the students are shelling out thousands of dollars for enjoyment of football and basketball and not the education, which is of utmost importance so America has some sort of drive forward as a nation.

In-state tuition and fees: $15,984
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $28,066
Room and board: $9,420
Books and supplies: $1,456
Estimated personal expenses: $3,222
Transportation expense: $702

Total - about $43,000 for out of state students per year and $31,000 for in state students per year.

Girl, I was wondering that too.....he sure disappeared.....

He'll be back, he's probably got a beautiful girlfriend already and she's occupying some of his time.

 

[TheHuntress]

There are School Resource Officers (basically a police officer) that are in the school. At least when I was in high school, one of them existed. The school's police officer can intervene and stop the fight if it were to happen.


One of the articles I remember reading in the newspapers, written by a woman, stated that the whole situation could've been avoided if only the assistant coach that walked in on the old guy stepped out and called 911. This was in 2002. Instead, the molesting acts from those guys continued on. Several of them happened during the Summer of 2005.

I agree with ur last paragraph. And even then, here are Penn State's tuition figures and costs. It's like the students are shelling out thousands of dollars for enjoyment of football and basketball and not the education, which is of utmost importance so America has some sort of drive forward as a nation.

In-state tuition and fees: $15,984
Out-of-state tuition and fees: $28,066
Room and board: $9,420
Books and supplies: $1,456
Estimated personal expenses: $3,222
Transportation expense: $702

Total - about $43,000 for out of state students per year and $31,000 for in state students per year.


He'll be back, he's probably got a beautiful girlfriend already and she's occupying some of his time.

Yes. School resource officers are not teachers. Teachers are not resource officers. Big difference, Mikey.

And as I said, I did not say I supported McQ, or that I thought what he did was right. I'm saying that considering his position, and having been in the position of victim, I can honestly say that I can understand- UNDERSTAND, not support, sympathize, or anything else along those lines- how what you know you should do or say is often quite different when it comes to something actually happening. I can comprehend how it got out of hand, especially in an environment like Penn State.

But, understanding something and supporting it are very different.

 

[Mikey]

Yes. School resource officers are not teachers. Teachers are not resource officers. Big difference, Mikey.

And as I said, I did not say I supported McQ, or that I thought what he did was right. I'm saying that considering his position, and having been in the position of victim, I can honestly say that I can understand- UNDERSTAND, not support, sympathize, or anything else along those lines- how what you know you should do or say is often quite different when it comes to something actually happening. I can comprehend how it got out of hand, especially in an environment like Penn State.

But, understanding something and supporting it are very different.

Ok, understood. We should sit back and let the proper authorities handle the case. The school needs a new president. Someone should be working on making that happen.

 

[z]

McQueary, a key witness in the ugly scandal, will not be on the sidelines for the foreseeable future, he has been handed indefinite leave by Penn State, good, drop them one by one...................