PBS Special: BLACK IN LATIN AMERICA

[empyrium]

Based on the total lack of wealth in the hands of Blacks in latin america.

You mean the lack of wealth in the hands of the general population?, much of Latin America is poor, not just black people, I'm not denying there is economic racism in Latin America, but I can speak for Brazil, while there aren't many extremely rich black people in Brazil you see many in the middle and upper class, the only reason there are wealthy blacks in the US is because it's the largest economy on the planet, not because it's less racist.

At least in America we have millions of wealthy and middle class blacks.

Again, the reason there are many middle class blacks in the US because it's the biggest economy

The Black people in the latin world don't have shit and are despised more than anyone...even indians.

The only countries in Latin America with considerable black populations are Brazil and Colombia (except for some extremely poor countries in central America), and in both countries you find middle class blacks.

Where are the Black businessmen and politicians/mayors/govenors/presidents in the latin world.??????????????????

Yep, fair enough, that's a criticism I'm gonna have to accept, still, that doesn't make Brazilians any more racist than Americans, don't tell me those blue-eyed Ohioans who voted for Obama are less racism than Brazilians because it's absurd and you know that.

 

[empyrium]

latin americans do the skin color test. the lighter you are, the more powerful you can become. since im mixed i would have a higher social standing then native blacks or just blacks with no european origin.

There is no institutionalized racism in Latin America, there is NOTHING that prevents you from climbing up the social ladder, not your skin color, not your race, nothing, the only difference is that whites tend to come from wealthier families, that's the reason they do better financially.

 

[empyrium]

Empyrium look at the representation of people of Afro descent on television in Latin America.

A lot of the programs you would be hard pressed to see someone of a dark skin tone, even though they exist in society.

In America you see blacks in the media much more, of course it wasn't always that way.

I love Brazil don't get me wrong, and while the racism may not be overt, there is a class distinction indeed and generally that follows a criteria along color.

The only time I hear of blacks in Brazil is when they mention Bahia, Carnival, Afro-Brazilian football player or a piece on favela life and who the BOPE shot to death the previous night in the news story.

If you disagree with what is being stated about blacks in Latin America then you can share some info that would be eye opening for us as to the role of blacks in these societies. I would welcome it as part of a discourse.

We're talking about two completely different countries here, it's hard to compare two different cultures, blacks in the US are more organized due to the country's violent history, there has always been a racial divide in the US, the concept of race is stronger in the US than in any other country in the world, it's a place where what you are and which culture you belong to is solely (or at least mostly) based on the race you belong to, American society as a whole is still very divided, blacks and whites still live in two different countries, they belong to different cultures, dress differently, listen to different kinds of music and even talk differently, they don't act like they're all fellow citizens... Whites talk about African Americans like they're immigrants... You don't have that in Brazil, Brazil is a lot more homogeneous and lot less racialistic, while there is some ingrained notion that white is just better than black, the average Brazilian doesn't care about skin color, here you don't belong to a race, you are Brazilian like everyone else, only someone who was born here or has lived here for a long period knows what I'm talking about, there is economic racism, sure, and the average Brazilian will date a white person over a black person (especially if they are white), but the average Brazilian is not so racially aware, they don't have the same notion that white people are superior and whites should stick together against blacks and such, that notion is very strong among white Americans, most of them are racially aware.

I'm not saying there is no racism in Brazil or other Latin American countries, I'm just saying that assertion is downright moronic, different cultures, different standards, if anything the only two countries in the Americas with a history of oppression and discrimination of black people are in North America, US and Canada, so how the hell does one conclude that Latin America is more racist?, and more racist than the most racialistic country in the world?, that's just ridiculous.

 

[King Fox]

Why Brazil of all places???

They should have focused on Countries that speak spanish.

If you let the video player continue after the first four clips they'll show the Dominican Republic and Cuba as well. And there's a link to Mexico too.

Very interesting for those of us who've never traveled abroad (though I do read about other places).

 

[The Dark King]

We're talking about two completely different countries here, it's hard to compare two different cultures, blacks in the US are more organized due to the country's violent history, there has always been a racial divide in the US, the concept of race is stronger in the US than in any other country in the world, it's a place where what you are and which culture you belong to is solely (or at least mostly) based on the race you belong to, American society as a whole is still very divided, blacks and whites still live in two different countries, they belong to different cultures, dress differently, listen to different kinds of music and even talk differently, they don't act like they're all fellow citizens... Whites talk about African Americans like they're immigrants... You don't have that in Brazil, Brazil is a lot more homogeneous and lot less racialistic, while there is some ingrained notion that white is just better than black, the average Brazilian doesn't care about skin color, here you don't belong to a race, you are Brazilian like everyone else, only someone who was born here or has lived here for a long period knows what I'm talking about, there is economic racism, sure, and the average Brazilian will date a white person over a black person (especially if they are white), but the average Brazilian is not so racially aware, they don't have the same notion that white people are superior and whites should stick together against blacks and such, that notion is very strong among white Americans, most of them are racially aware.

I'm not saying there is no racism in Brazil or other Latin American countries, I'm just saying that assertion is downright moronic, different cultures, different standards, if anything the only two countries in the Americas with a history of oppression and discrimination of black people are in North America, US and Canada, so how the hell does one conclude that Latin America is more racist?, and more racist than the most racialistic country in the world?, that's just ridiculous.

When your country votes for a black person to be their leader on any level let me know.

 

[empyrium]

When your country votes for a black person to be their leader on any level let me know.

Dude, you don't live here so you have a different picture of what the country really is, if you were here you'd be surprised to find out there are virtually no black candidates, so it's not that the country doesn't want a black leader...
Anyway, if it helps, São Paulo, the largest city in the country, had a black mayor once, Rio Grande do Sul, the second whitest state in the country, had a black governor... there are many other examples.

 

[empyrium]

One more thing

Racism is the belief that the genetic factors that constitute race, ethnicity, or nationality are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that ethnic differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Now ask yourself in which country there are more people who believe this, US or Brazil?, the answer is too obvious I guess.

 

[naija4real]

I think I get part of what you are saying. And that is, in Brazil there is no race as such because the culture is homogeneous, and probably there has been so much interbreeding that there is no longer heterogeneity, but what exists is differentiation on skin tones as against skin colour, like in white and blacks.

At the same time you concede that there is something like economic racism (your coinage ). Maybe we can climb higher in term categorization, using a more encompassing term that broadly encapsulates the effect of racism and classicism since it is so difficult to compare two societies that have different ethnic or racial makeups. I suggest this because from your thesis there is no race in Brazil but a blend of races with different skin tones.

Now, if we step higher on this ladder of categorization, we might have made comparison of human traits easier to accomplish by focusing on the effects of both, which is discrimination.

If you agree with this argument, the question then arises, is there discrimination? Are the privileges distributed along skin tones and not on meritocracy that weighs more on the zeal and the character of the individual?

I would think there exists tone selection in the African American community also. So it might actually be a feature that exists in societies where there has been interbreeding and where culture has evolved out of competition for economic resources. And in a sense, we see this feature of Brazilian life in America, and within the African American community. But the dichotomy is that that is likely the rule in the Brazilian society.

Nevertheless, like you surmised, it is hard comparing apples and oranges. But we can at least compare on the benefits in terms of the content of vitamin C and its benefit to human health. So let us take it from there then....


What is more important, economic racism, or racial superiority? If we dig into historical records, and call forth American history, Abraham Lincoln once made that argument that America should allow blacks opportunity for economic equality, but rather than racial equality. This ingrained consciousness may likely explain the more equal opportunities for all in the marketplace for the Americans, and likely unequal opportunities for those of similar race but with a darker hue.

I hope I have helped advanced your debate. I am just trying to understand all these back and forth arguments. I must confess it has been very enlightening though.

We're talking about two completely different countries here, it's hard to compare two different cultures, blacks in the US are more organized due to the country's violent history, there has always been a racial divide in the US, the concept of race is stronger in the US than in any other country in the world, it's a place where what you are and which culture you belong to is solely (or at least mostly) based on the race you belong to, American society as a whole is still very divided, blacks and whites still live in two different countries, they belong to different cultures, dress differently, listen to different kinds of music and even talk differently, they don't act like they're all fellow citizens... Whites talk about African Americans like they're immigrants... You don't have that in Brazil, Brazil is a lot more homogeneous and lot less racialistic, while there is some ingrained notion that white is just better than black, the average Brazilian doesn't care about skin color, here you don't belong to a race, you are Brazilian like everyone else, only someone who was born here or has lived here for a long period knows what I'm talking about, there is economic racism, sure, and the average Brazilian will date a white person over a black person (especially if they are white), but the average Brazilian is not so racially aware, they don't have the same notion that white people are superior and whites should stick together against blacks and such, that notion is very strong among white Americans, most of them are racially aware.

I'm not saying there is no racism in Brazil or other Latin American countries, I'm just saying that assertion is downright moronic, different cultures, different standards, if anything the only two countries in the Americas with a history of oppression and discrimination of black people are in North America, US and Canada, so how the hell does one conclude that Latin America is more racist?, and more racist than the most racialistic country in the world?, that's just ridiculous.

 

[FG]

There is no institutionalized racism in Latin America, there is NOTHING that prevents you from climbing up the social ladder, not your skin color, not your race, nothing, the only difference is that whites tend to come from wealthier families, that's the reason they do better financially.

You realize that this is exactly many white people are saying here in the US??? Does it make it not institutionalized racism????

 

[GQ Brotha]

There is no institutionalized racism in Latin America, there is NOTHING that prevents you from climbing up the social ladder, not your skin color, not your race, nothing, the only difference is that whites tend to come from wealthier families, that's the reason they do better financially.

Doesn't this thus highlight the historical conditions behind this concept. Why do whites tend to come from wealthier families and the blacks poorer ones. Historical conditions based on race, starting from the days of slavery, to lack of education and political power.

Why haven't blacks in Brazil acquired a greater share of the wealth in a society that doesn't prevent you from climbing the social ladder because of skin color.

I remember a few years ago there was a big story about University students in Brazil and some spots being given to Afro-Brazilian students, a big topic was made out of it ala affirmative action here in the U.S.

You would know your nation better than us, but I wrote my history thesis on Portuguese colonization of Brazil and have studied Brazilian history extensively.

Its one thing to say anyone can climb the social ladder, but if the opportunities aren't there en masse that is not going to happen. Some folks have an interest in maintaining the status quo for their own benefit, no matter whether it is the U.S. or Brazil.

 

[flaminghetero]

Doesn't this thus highlight the historical conditions behind this concept. Why do whites tend to come from wealthier families and the blacks poorer ones. Historical conditions based on race, starting from the days of slavery, to lack of education and political power.

Why haven't blacks in Brazil acquired a greater share of the wealth in a society that doesn't prevent you from climbing the social ladder because of skin color.

I remember a few years ago there was a big story about University students in Brazil and some spots being given to Afro-Brazilian students, a big topic was made out of it ala affirmative action here in the U.S.

You would know your nation better than us, but I wrote my history thesis on Portuguese colonization of Brazil and have studied Brazilian history extensively.

Its one thing to say anyone can climb the social ladder, but if the opportunities aren't there en masse that is not going to happen. Some folks have an interest in maintaining the status quo for their own benefit, no matter whether it is the U.S. or Brazil.

Black people in the latin world are so damaged many of them can barely admit they are Black.

Even the Blackest ones say:

"I'm not Black....I am spanish and Taino Indian"

LOL

Those Taino's must have been some super-dark mofos.

 

[orejon4]

Racism vs. Priejudice

There is no institutionalized racism in Latin America, there is NOTHING that prevents you from climbing up the social ladder, not your skin color, not your race, nothing, the only difference is that whites tend to come from wealthier families, that's the reason they do better financially.

Latin America is highly prejudiced, but there are no institutionally racist structures. As a result you have whites who deny the existence of racism and blacks and indigenous people with no sense of racial consciousness. And the racism is also extremely harsh on 'full-blooded' or outwardly identifiable natives. Calling someone 'indio' is not exactly used as a compliment either. And of course everyone is breaking their backs to talk about their Portuguese or Spanish great-grandfather. There is a socially accepted reverse application of the one-drop rule: if you're anything but black or indigenous, even if you're as black as the ace of spades or as red as the Lone Ranger's sidekick Tonto (don't even get me started about that name) there are people walking around talking about being gallego and castellano. It is the closest thing I have seen to Iykeg's dream society - you get to be white if you want, but just wait until you start asking for social mobility and opportunity...you will quickly find out how black you are. While anyone can be whatever they want and self-identify, I find a lot of it laughable coming from the US racial framework.

 

[orejon4]

There is no institutionalized racism in Latin America, there is NOTHING that prevents you from climbing up the social ladder, not your skin color, not your race, nothing, the only difference is that whites tend to come from wealthier families, that's the reason they do better financially.

Whites in Latin America don't have legislative mechanisms to hold back non-whites, but they ARE extremely oligarchical in their behavior: they hoard economic opportunities to an even greater degree than whites in the US historically - hence the repeated revolutions against dictatorships and autocrats who concentrate power in a few hands (Somosa, Trujillo, etc). I don't believe that the only difference is whites' greater relative wealth. First that wealth had its origins in official race exploitation (slavery) followed by officially non-racist social structures that prevented the development of racial consciousness. As a result race and class are often conflated to the point of blurring any distinction between the two. Hard to have a Black Power Movement when only 20% of those who would be black in the US even identify as such. The much higher degree of racial integration among the working class and greater degree of race-mixing only complicates the subject of group identification.

Greater poverty in Latin America plays a role in determining the relatively lower status of blacks, but so does personal (as opposed to state-sanctioned) racial attitudes. In the absence of race-specific measures to address the imbalance created by historical racism, you end up with a society with almost no opportunities for social mobility. That being said, the US is on its way there, as we have the greatest uneven distribution of wealth in the industrialized world.

 

[orejon4]

Why Brazil of all places???

They should have focused on Countries that speak spanish.

Because Brazil is the largest country in Latin America and has the largest black population in the world after Nigeria: more than the US or any other African nation. Makes for larger test and control groups for study.

Sorry if I'm redundant in my posts, I just saw the topic and wanted to jump in, but am using my handset and haven't scrolled all the way through the thread.

 

[orejon4]

Latin America is part of the western world?? are you kidding ??? so Guatemala is part of western world? Even Brazil which is now the world's tenth largest economy cannot be classified as western world homie.

I agree with Empyrium here. The 'Western World' is any nation with its roots in the nations of. Western Europe or substantially colonized and inhabited by same. That's Latin America too. The Spaniards and Portuguese are as 'Western' as the French and English.

 

[orejon4]

When your country votes for a black person to be their leader on any level let me know.

There have been a couple of black mayors of major cities.

 

[APPIAH]

The Western world, also known as the West and the Occident (from Latin: occidens "sunset, west"; as contrasted with the Orient), is a term that can have multiple meanings depending on its context (e.g., the time period, the region or social situation).[1] Accordingly, the basic definition of what constitutes "the West" varies, expanding and contracting over time, in relation to various historical circumstances. Overall, the term Western world can be defined as all the nations who are European, or greatly influenced by European languages, traditions and culture. This does however not mean that a nation should be ethnically European.

Do a research before you post, just a hint.

You trying to be intelligent here? please don't cuz you don't have the capability to do so. I asked you a questing is ,Guatemala,Peru,Bolivia classified as western world? I am sure you are concentrating on Brazil and Argentina being influenced by European culture but in Brazil African culture is also very prevalent just like Indian culture. now you READ .

 

[GQ Brotha]

Latin America is highly prejudiced, but there are no institutionally racist structures. As a result you have whites who deny the existence of racism and blacks and indigenous people with no sense of racial consciousness. And the racism is also extremely harsh on 'full-blooded' or outwardly identifiable natives. Calling someone 'indio' is not exactly used as a compliment either. And of course everyone is breaking their backs to talk about their Portuguese or Spanish great-grandfather. Their is a socially accepted reverse application of the one-drop rule: if you're anything but black or indigenous, even if you're as black as the ace of spades or as red as the Lone Ranger's sidekick Tonto (don't even get me started about that name) there are people walking around talking about being gallego and castellano. It is the closest thing I have seen to Iykeg's dream society - you get to be white if you want, but just wait until you start asking for social mobility and opportunity...you will quickly find out how black you are. While anyone can be whatever they want and self-identify, I find a lot of it laughable coming from the US racial framework.

Absolutely, If America had told the red bones and yellow bones that they aren't black and thus didn't have the one drop rule, how do you think American society would have been shaped historically.

Some of the lightest looking black folks you can see marching during the Civil Rights Era, because they were seen as black in American social policy.

You have people with overwhelmingly African roots and skin tone in Latin America that won't even acknowledge that part of themselves. Its a very odd thing to see.

The only difference between them and myself is the culture they come from, but we have the same skin tone, except I'm Anglophone speaking and they are Spanish speaking.

Saw this a lot in college with the Hispanic students, even the one's that looked black seemed to shy away from such a notion, like it was a shame.

If one cannot even acknowledge they are black, how can they begin to admit they are discriminated against.

This says it all.

That Sammy Sosa, a famous professional athlete felt compelled to do this to himself, nuff said. SMDH.

 

[The Dark King]

Absolutely, If America had told the red bones and yellow bones that they aren't black and thus didn't have the one drop rule, how do you think American society would have been shaped historically.

Some of the lightest looking black folks you can see marching during the Civil Rights Era, because they were seen as black in American social policy.

You have people with overwhelmingly African roots and skin tone in Latin America that won't even acknowledge that part of themselves. Its a very odd thing to see.

The only difference between them and myself is the culture they come from, but we have the same skin tone, except I'm Anglophone speaking and they are Spanish speaking.

Saw this a lot in college with the Hispanic students, even the one's that looked black seemed to shy away from such a notion, like it was a shame.

If one cannot even acknowledge they are black, how can they begin to admit they are discriminated against.

This says it all.

That Sammy Sosa, a famous professional athlete felt compelled to do this to himself, nuff said. SMDH.

Another reason why I tend to stay away from Hispanics all together. Too much negativity there.

 

[flaminghetero]

Absolutely, If America had told the red bones and yellow bones that they aren't black and thus didn't have the one drop rule, how do you think American society would have been shaped historically.

Some of the lightest looking black folks you can see marching during the Civil Rights Era, because they were seen as black in American social policy.

You have people with overwhelmingly African roots and skin tone in Latin America that won't even acknowledge that part of themselves. Its a very odd thing to see.

The only difference between them and myself is the culture they come from, but we have the same skin tone, except I'm Anglophone speaking and they are Spanish speaking.

Saw this a lot in college with the Hispanic students, even the one's that looked black seemed to shy away from such a notion, like it was a shame.

If one cannot even acknowledge they are black, how can they begin to admit they are discriminated against.

This says it all.

That Sammy Sosa, a famous professional athlete felt compelled to do this to himself, nuff said. SMDH.

:smt038:smt038:smt038

Very well said.

I know a mofo from Puerto Rico that is Blacker than a mule's nose....this fool says he's Spanish and Taino indian....LOL.