help..wonderful white women/parents

[Tamstrong]

I have some degree of admiration for Frederick Douglass' scholarship and principles during a time where people of African descent were not allowed to read or write. That, however, is not the question. The question IS, however, the relative motivations for the 'biracial' movement and its gaining momentum.

First, I didn't say that biracial children seek to be "better" than non-mixed children. I DID, however, state that there is a desire to escape the social stigma attached to "blackness". Understandably so, as no child should be made to feel as anything better or less than anyone else. While I feel deeply for the pain some of these children may experience, I don't think they are necessarily looking to express the 'fullness' of their ethnic identity. It's not like these children are looking to learn Gaelic and Yoruba in equal measure and maintain joint membership in the IRA and African People's Revolutionary Party or something and have some asserted desire to fully represent each half of their identity in some sort of overt fashion. And I totally oppose the balkanization of society a la South Africa into distinct racial categories, because, as is evident in the South African apartheid-era example, the overriding intent AND result is to place whiteness in a privileged sphere and defined as normative while all other groups are defined in relationship to their relative "whiteness" and treated as the "other".

I don't care how children identify themselves, as it is the right of everyone to determine their identity (assuming it's not in defiance of objective fact, like calling oneself a goat or something). However, I do believe that within much of this burgeoning 'movement' is a desire on the part of some of the people to identify as anything other than black. I disagree with the black community attempting to lay sole claim to Tiger Woods as if he just got off a boat from Nigeria, but I also disagree with the whole 'Cablinasian' nonsense he attempted to justify as some sort of category. In my mind, he was what he was: a racially diverse African-American with a Thai mother. Period. I don't see why anyone (black or white) finds these such difficult things to digest. The only reason I can see for it is that they must have some sort of difficulty identifying with 'blackness' (whatever the hell that means, but I'll use it as shorthand for the purposes of this discussion).

I appreciate your passion for this topic and the obvious love you have for your children and the difficulties they may face in society. That is a very admirable characteristic and one that I think we can all agree that all parents should share. I do not believe that anyone has a right to make a child feel less than whole and the problem with their identity is society's, not the child's. However, the terms "biracial" and "multiracial" are wholly unspecific and serve to cloud discussion rather than clarify. People should be able to state freely and precisely what they are IF AND ONLY IF they want to. The propagation and fetishization of these categories is not a solution. Completely eradicating racism is.

Excellent post, Orejon! :smt023

 

[Ymra]

noone can ever say you don't try your damnedest to be a tough guy

well...considering everything I've done up to this point, if I'm not a TOUGH GUY. I never will be.

All USMC Boxing Team
All Army boxing Team
Three time combat vet
Golden Glove south east region
Military Bench Press Record
Military Powerful Champion
three time USARNG Soldier of the year
State of Maryland top shooter of the year (M9, M4, M16, M24)
2nd degree black belt (Shotokan)

.....you may not believe this but if the above doesn't make me a "TOUGH GUY," shitting on you on a message board won't have any affect.

...you are not too good with this snappy come back thing are you. You are not going to ask me to meet me in the street are you? LOL...Uncle Rukus.....you should got back to calling me "son" again. ha ha ha ha that worked out pretty good for you.

...and I'm a MEAN on COD XBOX 360.

 

[Ymra]

....why TRY to be a tough guy?

 

[Ymra]

if you have to tell people then you probably aren't......just saying. that fragile ego of yours is such a sad trait.

ahhh, see imp it doesn't work that way. Your sweet ass can't question me and then when I respond say. "Oh if you have to tell people..." ha ha ha

*giggle*

I just wanted you to know young boy its not an act, since you seemed so concerned whether or not I'm a tough guy, which as nothing to do with me shitting on you on this message board. which I will continue to do

I hope this puts your uncle tom ass at ease now.

 

[Sweden]

I enjoy fucking with you young dude........I'll grow tired of playing with my food soon enough. Relax.

...or not

...I don't care

...do I have a hard on for you? Hmm...well I don't know *Mr. T voice*: You do look mighty cute in them jeans.

Oh yes he does indead hihi.

 

[Ymra]

Oh yes he does indead hihi.

see...remember folks you heard it here first!

 

[Sweden]

see...remember folks you heard it here first!

Yes...about 3 moths ago when he joined! Been licking the screen for every pic he posts....and not hiding that...not now and not before YMRA.

 

[Ymra]

Yes...about 3 moths ago when he joined! Been licking the screen for every pic he posts....and not hiding that...not now and not before YMRA.

ummm................sure....................yeah...........umm.............hmmm............


wonderful?

Not following the whole YMRA in caps thing but.....umm.....

 

[ReginaStar]

I have some degree of admiration for Frederick Douglass' scholarship and principles during a time where people of African descent were not allowed to read or write. That, however, is not the question. The question IS, however, the relative motivations for the 'biracial' movement and its gaining momentum.

First, I didn't say that biracial children seek to be "better" than non-mixed children. I DID, however, state that there is a desire to escape the social stigma attached to "blackness". Understandably so, as no child should be made to feel as anything better or less than anyone else. While I feel deeply for the pain some of these children may experience, I don't think they are necessarily looking to express the 'fullness' of their ethnic identity. It's not like these children are looking to learn Gaelic and Yoruba in equal measure and maintain joint membership in the IRA and African People's Revolutionary Party or something and have some asserted desire to fully represent each half of their identity in some sort of overt fashion. And I totally oppose the balkanization of society a la South Africa into distinct racial categories, because, as is evident in the South African apartheid-era example, the overriding intent AND result is to place whiteness in a privileged sphere and defined as normative while all other groups are defined in relationship to their relative "whiteness" and treated as the "other".

I don't care how children identify themselves, as it is the right of everyone to determine their identity (assuming it's not in defiance of objective fact, like calling oneself a goat or something). However, I do believe that within much of this burgeoning 'movement' is a desire on the part of some of the people to identify as anything other than black. I disagree with the black community attempting to lay sole claim to Tiger Woods as if he just got off a boat from Nigeria, but I also disagree with the whole 'Cablinasian' nonsense he attempted to justify as some sort of category. In my mind, he was what he was: a racially diverse African-American with a Thai mother. Period. I don't see why anyone (black or white) finds these such difficult things to digest. The only reason I can see for it is that they must have some sort of difficulty identifying with 'blackness' (whatever the hell that means, but I'll use it as shorthand for the purposes of this discussion).

I appreciate your passion for this topic and the obvious love you have for your children and the difficulties they may face in society. That is a very admirable characteristic and one that I think we can all agree that all parents should share. I do not believe that anyone has a right to make a child feel less than whole and the problem with their identity is society's, not the child's. However, the terms "biracial" and "multiracial" are wholly unspecific and serve to cloud discussion rather than clarify. People should be able to state freely and precisely what they are IF AND ONLY IF they want to. The propagation and fetishization of these categories is not a solution. Completely eradicating racism is.

I just don't agree. Of all the people I have known to identify with their multiple races they were not trying to escape their blackness. My older children's aunt who is Korean/white is not trying to escape her asianess by identifying as both either. Their they may be some b/c sure some identify solely as white, asian, etc when they half black but it's still a relatively small portion to those that are just trying to encompass their whole selves. Biracial, and multiracial maybe common terms to say this person is more than 1 but they are still identifying with their multiple races. When multiracial people fill out forms they are identifying with their separate racial groups not just one broad term like multiracial. So what seems to be the problem? As far as Tiger goes what is wrong with him using a term to encompass all of himself? Do you have problem with biracial people using terms like mulatto, Hapa, Afropean, etc too? I don't agree with Tiger Woods being a multiracial African American with a Thia mother. He doesn't just have a Thia mother, he is also Thia. He is not a multiracial African American he is a multiracial person. I can see that term being used for someone that has a grandparent or great grandparent but for someone like Tiger that is 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, 1/8 white, 1/8 native American it just makes no sense to call him a African American. I can see calling him a multiracial Asian-African American.

 

[ReginaStar]

So for those of you that filled out the census for your children what did you write?

Did you check off all their races, just one, or write in multiracial?
I'm betting most people that acknowledged their children as multiracial actually put multiple checks by the different racial groups they belong too.

I checked both the black and white box for mine.

 

[xoxo]

So for those of you that filled out the census for your children what did you write?

Did you check off all their races, just one, or write in multiracial?
I'm betting most people that acknowledged their children as multiracial actually put multiple checks by the different racial groups they belong too.

I checked both the black and white box for mine.

You just had to bring up the census....

The how do I define, or colloquially: "what do i raise my kids to be" discussion drives me insane, it's enough to put one off IR all together...

 

[ReginaStar]

You just had to bring up the census....

The how do I define, or colloquially: "what do i raise my kids to be" discussion drives me insane, it's enough to put one off IR all together...

I think it's a very important part of interracial relationships.

 

[lippy]

You just had to bring up the census....

The how do I define, or colloquially: "what do i raise my kids to be" discussion drives me insane, it's enough to put one off IR all together...

not just the census...my employer does payroll through one of the largest payroll companies in the usa...on the employee personal information page there is a box for ethinic group

the first question is: are you hispanic or latino yes or no

if not hispanic or latino, check the correct box below...here are the choices

white
asian
black or african american
american indian/alaska native
native hawaiian or other pacific islander
two or more races combined

 

[xoxo]

I think it's a very important part of interracial relationships.

Well, you have a personal interest in racial discourse, believing race to be a scientific reality. So, I'm sure every aspect of race, even a societal one like the census is very important to you. In this discussion a common counter to you would be the importance of a Black ID on the census for the strengthening of a Black body politic. You had to open that whole multiracial census can of worms? While I might disagree with both sides, at least many who would counter you are at least partly dealing with racial classifications function in determining social hierarchy.

 

[orejon4]

I just don't agree. Of all the people I have known to identify with their multiple races they were not trying to escape their blackness. My older children's aunt who is Korean/white is not trying to escape her asianess by identifying as both either. Their they may be some b/c sure some identify solely as white, asian, etc when they half black but it's still a relatively small portion to those that are just trying to encompass their whole selves. Biracial, and multiracial maybe common terms to say this person is more than 1 but they are still identifying with their multiple races. When multiracial people fill out forms they are identifying with their separate racial groups not just one broad term like multiracial. So what seems to be the problem? As far as Tiger goes what is wrong with him using a term to encompass all of himself? Do you have problem with biracial people using terms like mulatto, Hapa, Afropean, etc too? I don't agree with Tiger Woods being a multiracial African American with a Thia mother. He doesn't just have a Thia mother, he is also Thia. He is not a multiracial African American he is a multiracial person. I can see that term being used for someone that has a grandparent or great grandparent but for someone like Tiger that is 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, 1/8 white, 1/8 native American it just makes no sense to call him a African American. I can see calling him a multiracial Asian-African American.

My post was not intended to identify Tiger Woods as solely African-American. It was intended to show the ridiculousness of calling oneself "Cablinasian", or rather, the manufacturing of arbitrary classifications to satisfy a need that is itself rooted in the reality of living in racist societies. My description was not intended to disrespect his Thai heritage. It was meant to describe that he is half multiracial African-American (meaning, like most African-Americans he is of slavery-era multiple heritages, i.e. the mixture of black and indigenous, common among Southern blacks) and half Thai. I am in favor of giving all contributions their due, as I do with myself, but I prefer a person saying precisely what they are (if they have to at all) rather than using obscuring terms like 'multiracial'. And you will note that in that same post I ALSO DISAGREED with black people claiming he is solely black, as that is clearly not the case.

I disagree with the black community attempting to lay sole claim to Tiger Woods as if he just got off a boat from Nigeria, but I also disagree with the whole 'Cablinasian' nonsense he attempted to justify as some sort of category.

But in terms of appearances he looks more Fijian than anything else, neither black nor Thai but Melanesian/Polynesian. And again, you misinterpret what I am saying about mixed people. There is a difference between trying to escape stigma and denying blackness. I do not think these people are trying to deny that they have black ancestry, and I agree that they want to be acknowledged fully. There is, however, a greater degree (at least in the midwest and most majority-white environments I have experienced) of acceptance of half-whites than people who are wholly non-white, with attitudes toward those who are 'wholly black' as the least positive. And I don't think that the prevalence of hip-hop culture and births of multiracial children has ameliorated that much except in urban diverse environments. If anything, in more conservative parts of the country, I believe this has hardened attitudes among whites aged 40+.

Having stated this, I remind you, I have NO EXPERIENCE IN THE SOUTH, as South Florida is more like the northern Caribbean than the US South. However, the need to be acknowledged in a racial sense IS a particular function of racism in industrialized Western societies, as opposed to simple ethnic identity in developing countries. The creation of 'coloured' castes in society IS a global phenomenon in post-colonial societies that devalues people based on their blackness and the percentage thereof. It posits individuals along a racial 'continuum' that places whiteness at the ideal and group identify and social stratification flow from it. We cannot simply ignore historical influences in shaping modern race relations, as it is the very foundation on which they are built.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. As a child of a multi-ethnic black father and as the father of a multi-ethnic/racial son, I think I also have some unique insight into the psyche of 'mixed' black children and their psychological makeup. My son is not 'mixed'. There is no land of 'mixed' people called 'Mixlandia', lol. He is ethnically African-American-Puerto Rican/Spaniard, and he is racially perceived by white Americans as a black child with a white mother (their statements, not mine), unless they hear us speaking Spanish and tell us to go back to our country, which happens often in the midwest, lol. I also acknowledge the difference with the way black Americans perceive him. On a couple of occasions he was called 'white' by African-American children at the playground, when he couldn't be further from the Nordic standard. As a child, he didn't perceive his mother as white, but "light brown" because he saw her as differently racially than white Americans. In the Latino community, his mother, myself and our child are just viewed as Latino, period, or as the black American/Puerto Rican with the white Spaniard wife. That, however, is a function of the group identity that Latinos have in the US, which is not inherent to the countries of origin.

It is clear from our disagreement on this that we just clearly live in different environments, contexts and generations (I'm 41), and as such our experiences have nothing in common. Given those stark differences, it's to be expected that we would differ on this topic and all others. And I remind you that race is an ENTIRELY SOCIAL DESIGNATION, not a scientific one. Nevertheless I enjoy spirited debate. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[ReginaStar]

My post was not intended to identify Tiger Woods as solely African-American. It was intended to show the ridiculousness of calling oneself "Cablinasian", or rather, the manufacturing of arbitrary classifications to satisfy a need that is itself rooted in the reality of living in racist societies. My description was not intended to disrespect his Thai heritage. It was meant to describe that he is half multiracial African-American (meaning, like most African-Americans he is of slavery-era multiple heritages, i.e. the mixture of black and indigenous, common among Southern blacks) and half Thai. I am in favor of giving all contributions their due, as I do with myself, but I prefer a person saying precisely what they are (if they have to at all) rather than using obscuring terms like 'multiracial'. And you will note that in that same post I ALSO DISAGREED with black people claiming he is solely black, as that is clearly not the case.

But in terms of appearances he looks more Fijian than anything else, neither black nor Thai but Melanesian/Polynesian. And again, you misinterpret what I am saying about mixed people. There is a difference between trying to escape stigma and denying blackness. I do not think these people are trying to deny that they have black ancestry, and I agree that they want to be acknowledged fully. There is, however, a greater degree (at least in the midwest and most majority-white environments I have experienced) of acceptance of half-whites than people who are wholly non-white, with attitudes toward those who are 'wholly black' as the least positive. And I don't think that the prevalence of hip-hop culture and births of multiracial children has ameliorated that much except in urban diverse environments. If anything, in more conservative parts of the country, I believe this has hardened attitudes among whites aged 40+.

Having stated this, I remind you, I have NO EXPERIENCE IN THE SOUTH, as South Florida is more like the northern Caribbean than the US South. However, the need to be acknowledged in a racial sense IS a particular function of racism in industrialized Western societies, as opposed to simple ethnic identity in developing countries. The creation of 'coloured' castes in society IS a global phenomenon in post-colonial societies that devalues people based on their blackness and the percentage thereof. It posits individuals along a racial 'continuum' that places whiteness at the ideal and group identify and social stratification flow from it. We cannot simply ignore historical influences in shaping modern race relations, as it is the very foundation on which they are built.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. As a child of a multi-ethnic black father and as the father of a multi-ethnic/racial son, I think I also have some unique insight into the psyche of 'mixed' black children and their psychological makeup. My son is not 'mixed'. There is no land of 'mixed' people called 'Mixlandia', lol. He is ethnically African-American-Puerto Rican/Spaniard, and he is racially perceived by white Americans as a black child with a white mother (their statements, not mine), unless they hear us speaking Spanish and tell us to go back to our country, which happens often in the midwest, lol. I also acknowledge the difference with the way black Americans perceive him. On a couple of occasions he was called 'white' by African-American children at the playground, when he couldn't be further from the Nordic standard. As a child, he didn't perceive his mother as white, but "light brown" because he saw her as differently racially than white Americans. In the Latino community, his mother, myself and our child are just viewed as Latino, period, or as the black American/Puerto Rican with the white Spaniard wife. That, however, is a function of the group identity that Latinos have in the US, which is not inherent to the countries of origin.

It is clear from our disagreement on this that we just clearly live in different environments, contexts and generations (I'm 41), and as such our experiences have nothing in common. Given those stark differences, it's to be expected that we would differ on this topic and all others. And I remind you that race is an ENTIRELY SOCIAL DESIGNATION, not a scientific one. Nevertheless I enjoy spirited debate. Thanks for the discussion.

I don't understand the difference between trying to escape stigma of being black and trying to escape blackness. I thought those whom were trying to escape blackness was trying to escape the stigma. Can you explain through example what exactly you are saying?

I thought you may have been using African American in that sense and not in the meaning of black a race however African American, Thia American, black or Asian. I don't believe you can be atleast half of a race and only be a singular race with a parent of another race. I believe you are the race of your parent. My husband is black. His mother is black and his fahter was black/white. My husband was adopted. His adopted mother (bio aunt) is black and his adopted father is puerto rican. He is a black man with a puerto rican dad. His siblings are not African Americans. They are Afro-Puerto Rican Americans. They grew up in the midwest too. My son is not black with a white mom. He is black and white with a white mom and black dad.

Yes I understand the reality that most countires are labeled by ethnicity opposed to race. But same difference my children for example are both multiethnic and multiracial. African American and European American. Black and white.
If something is wrong it benefits no one. A caste system whether it was in the US, South America and the Caribbeans, or Africa is wrong regardless. It's also wrong to incorrectly label someone if they don't choose that label. Although I question that too I mean or we right to label white people as black b/c they choose that label for themselves (cause some do)? Social or Scientifically what relevance does it have. There still will be a difference between Black, white, and Black/white and every other singular race/ethnicity or combination.

I just want to know why is not such a big deal to label by race white, black, Asian, native American, or (ethnicity) Hispanic. But when we start labeling someone multiple races it's suddenly a problem. All whites do not share the same culture, not blacks, nor Asians, nor Hispanics. Yrma takes issue to biracial/multiracial terms but does not take issue to black, Asian, etc terms when those terms to not describe the culture of an individual either. I don't get it.

 

[ReginaStar]

Well, you have a personal interest in racial discourse, believing race to be a scientific reality. So, I'm sure every aspect of race, even a societal one like the census is very important to you. In this discussion a common counter to you would be the importance of a Black ID on the census for the strengthening of a Black body politic. You had to open that whole multiracial census can of worms? While I might disagree with both sides, at least many who would counter you are at least partly dealing with racial classifications function in determining social hierarchy.

I don't think having racial classification on the census is such a bad thing. I mean it can be used in a negative way but it also has it's positives. We still live in a world where race does matter. If I was African American I would not want to live in a place that 99% white. The census allows us to be able to make sure the places we are moving to is diverse. Having a diverse family diversity is important to me. When I look at moving I always check the stats of the school to make sure they are not too white or too black (the two main categories in my area) and I also look for the highest multiracial %'s I can find. That is surely a benefit to me.
Also when you check 2 boxes on the census ex. black and white you do not just go into the more than one race box. You go in all 3 boxes. So if the town says they are 34% black they are including the 2% that checked both white and black. If the town says 34% white they are including the 2% that checked both black and white.

 

[Ymra]

Yrma takes issue to biracial/multiracial terms but does not take issue to black, Asian, etc terms when those terms to not describe the culture of an individual either. I don't get it.

Yrma takes issue to whites insistence on using the term biracial/multiracial for some warped misguided reason to bring credit to each race, which it does not do. In the end how you identify yourself and your children is your own choice, but the faux offense from whites is silly.

 

[xoxo]

I don't think having racial classification on the census is such a bad thing. I mean it can be used in a negative way but it also has it's positives. We still live in a world where race does matter. If I was African American I would not want to live in a place that 99% white. The census allows us to be able to make sure the places we are moving to is diverse. Having a diverse family diversity is important to me. When I look at moving I always check the stats of the school to make sure they are not too white or too black (the two main categories in my area) and I also look for the highest multiracial %'s I can find. That is surely a benefit to me.
Also when you check 2 boxes on the census ex. black and white you do not just go into the more than one race box. You go in all 3 boxes. So if the town says they are 34% black they are including the 2% that checked both white and black. If the town says 34% white they are including the 2% that checked both black and white.

I understand the positions, you can affirm your position in anyway you see fit, if others dislike it like YMRA, so be it. You guys have to do what you feel is best for your families.

 

[ReginaStar]

Yrma takes issue to whites insistence on using the term biracial/multiracial for some warped misguided reason to bring credit to each race, which it does not do. In the end how you identify yourself and your children is your own choice, but the faux offense from whites is silly.

So r u saying if they call their children black and white that doesn't bother u but if they just use the term biracial it does?