Espy I'm just trying reiterate his point that more often than not women want to be treated as equals except when it comes to dating which favors them. I know some women like yourself expect nothing but unfortunately the majority of your gender wants it both ways. They want to be thought of as equals when we're working but revered as women when we date. I wasn't going after you in particular when I said women hide behind gender roles when it suites them but you have to admitt there's a ridiculous double standard. From where I'm sitting the old practices don't work or otherwise so many people wouldn't be unfilfilled or unsatisfied.
There are some double standards for some women Andrae - but that goes for male gender roles as well and some men hiding behind them also.
Do you seriously think men are faultless in this??? Wake up. Ther are a LOT of men that claim they believe in equality - but yet, they can not get used to the idea of the woman being the main bread winner - or they stay home with the kids - because "that is not manly". I can go on and on.
I thought we were talking in the context of dating no relationships. Btw I honestly don't think many men care about women making more. I think they worry about what it might mean to the woman. I honestly think a lot of women can love a man despite his paycheck but few can respect a man who make less than they do. In my honest opinion I think women want to ve dominated and lead but want to feel they have the option to be equals when they choose to or feel like it.
Well, you stated a general question about women wanting equality everywhere but in dating and that that was a double standard so I just wentured with teh subject. I hate to tell you that many men that t h i n k they are ok with the woman earning more money - are not, when they end up in that situation - seems to do something with their sense of manhood and the upbringing they have of being the idea of the man being the main bread winner. Its an issue I run into a lot dating... Respect really doesnt come with the size of the paycheck (only crappy women do this and it is not the majority of wome doing this) - it comes with how you are and how you treat others. Your stuck on this idea of women being focused on your paycheck - I really hope you find a way to meet women of better quality than you currently apparently meet - they are out there - in droves Trust me Same with your idea of women choosing when to be equal and when not, thats women of poor quality and not the majority of women. but I see what you are saying and there are women like that, but I think its not the majority. I think many men still see women as cheap if they approach you and dont see them as serious candidates for serious dating - so I think a lot of women are afraid of how they are percieved if they take the first step. I think for this to change, the perception of sexuality and what behavior is ok for men and not for women has to change in order for women to be comfortable with this - there is still too much stigma in this. I also dont think that just because we want equal pay for equal job means that we need to be equal in dating - it is not the same issue. I want a man who makes me feel like a woman but that has nothing to do with his paycheck. I do want the same paycheck for the same job. I dont care if I pay the morgage and being the main breadwinner - as long as you are not a mooch and use me. I dont need a man to pay my bills etc - I need a man because Im in love with him and need his emotional support. Right before my X and I broke up he told me "what do you need me for, I dont have anything to offer you" - I thought that was so missguided - its not the 50s - I dont need you for your money I need you because I want you and love you and you fulfill me. In the dating arena I think both women and men struggle with issues that are not so clear to the other sex. Discussions like this is good because you make women aware of what many men think and we can also bring up things that men dont think of... I like it
My apologies Andrae, I thought you were actually addressing my refusal to make the first move. I understand that double standards very much exist and personally I deplore them. But I also think I should point out that on the subject of women making the first move in terms of dating, a lot of women think that's not what men want. In fact I don't know one single women personally who thinks that's a good idea. It's not that they aren't capable, I think it's more that women are often raised with the belief that it's the man's job to do that, or that men frown upon women who do that, or that men will think you easy or desperate if you hit on them. It's not lack of courage, or desire not to take risk, it's misunderstanding.
Ok now this is something we can agree on. I also agree with FG that dialogues like this help to bridge the gap and I think a lot of us, me included, allow the misguided assholes of the world to speak for everyone. It's probably a mixture of fear and insecurities. It's easy to blame othersbut far more difficult to look inwards and recognize that our insecurities don't need to control us. Good talk ladies!!!
Agreed... and if I was smart I'd drop it there... but, I feel compelled to point out that I don't have insecurities at all about approaching anyone. I do think that may be the issue for some men and women, but it's not an issue for me. I'm just not going to take the lead in the dating area of my life, not from the start. Like I said, I'll open a conversation, and send enough signals that a blind guy could pick up on, but that's as far as I'm taking it. I know you don't agree with me, but that's just my rule, and it's about the only one I have and I don't foresee changing it. I never say never, cause that always bites you on the ass, but I think it highly unlikely.
"... do think that may be the issue for some men and women, but it's not an issue for me. I'm just not going to take the lead in the dating area of my life, not from the start. Like I said, I'll open a conversation, and send enough signals that a blind guy could pick up on, but that's as far as I'm taking it. I know you don't agree with me, but that's just my rule, and it's about the only one I have and I don't foresee changing it. I never say never, cause that always bites you on the ass, but I think it highly unlikely." Look all I am writing here is that double standard you've written here is prevalant in many women. Who claim to be confident and who want to date. How is it that you get what you want being a wall flower? "I'm just not going to take the lead in the dating area of my life" How's that again? Not "being in charge" is the way to get the man you want? ==========================================================
I gotta agree with you Soulman. It's pretty much a passive aggressive game. If you want something go get it. Going up to a guy and saying doesn't make you a slut and if a guy thinks you are because of that then he wasn't worth the effort.
It isn't an either/or proposition, as in you're either a wall flower or you're a woman who makes the first move. Those are on opposite ends of the spectrum with a whole lotta room in between. I don't see this as a double standard for me personally. It's simply something I'm not going to do, and that has nothing to do with equality or a lack of, that's just me. I realize there are women and men for whom it is very much a double standard, but I can't speak as to what motivates them to think like that. If you don't like it, don't interact with them. The idea that you have to be 'in charge' to get what you want also isn't accurate. Someone recently tried to point out to me that dating is a competition, a survival of the fittest type of ordeal. I disagreed with him. Perhaps he's actually right and that is how most people see it, but personally I don't play games. What you see is what you get with me. I'm not going to be someone I'm not, or work to outdo everyone else, I'm just going to be me and if they like it fine, if they don't fine. All the time, money and effort people put into trying to 'compete' for affection seems counterproductive to me. All the emphasis on trying to be what the other person's looking for, to appeal to their ideal of what they want, it's no wonder people end up with someone they don't actually know. That's like bait and switch, to present yourself as something you aren't just to get close to someone and then once you're in, you get to be yourself. Did it ever occur to you that it's false advertising and maybe they don't want you, they want the person they thought you were? Some people really should come with warning labels. Not everyone is constantly looking for someone, some of us are okay without a man or woman in our lives. Alone is not synonymous with lonely. Bottomline, I'm not playing a game and if I was going to, I'm sure not going to play it by someone else's rules. If that leaves me less able to 'compete', I'm okay with that. I'm a big believer that things work out like they're supposed to, often with no help from me. So if Mr. Wonderful happens to be out there somewhere, we'll find each other. I think sometimes people just work too hard to make things happen. I find that the best things are often effortless.
I agree that women who approach men have nothing to feel badly about, and that if the man thinks less of you for doing it then he's not worth your time. However, I do not view my personal preferences on this subject as passive/aggressive and frankly that's offensive.
I wasn't referring you personally but the act of sending signals instead of apporaching someone falls under the category of passive aggressive. You know you want something but you're waiting for someone to offer it to you. What else would you call it?
I see Passive/Aggressive as a negative personality disorder. It's typically seen in people who lack the courage to confront something head on and instead use verbal or other non-physical means to convey their thoughts on any given matter. I don't apply it to dating. I suppose from your perspective my definition appears to back up your suggestion. The issue I have is this, I'm incapable of passive/aggressive behavior, if I want something I have no problem going after it as aggressively as necessary. However, I won't make a move on a man, which appears to contradict that. I will say that I think approaching him and starting the conversation should convey a reduction in risk to him, and I would consider that mildly aggressive as well. You can judge that passive if you like, I just have trouble thinking of myself as passive in any way. But honestly I've never met a man who didn't fall into the 'I can take it or leave it' category. Perhaps if someone ever really made an impression I might have to reevaluate my position, but I still think it's unlikely.
Actual feminism means: Equal Rights - Equal Responsibilities That's how I was raised, and it is how most Women I know approach things.
