Why do you pray?

I suppose atheists can be annoying at times - me especially. But what you suffer at the hands of atheists is still nothing compared to what we've gone through, and continue to go through at the hands of Christians and other believers.

 

First, I don't think of this as arguing, but rather discussion.

My whole point, is that you have to take Jesus' words in the context they were spoken. Nowhere does the Bible say that "we (anyone, the masses) can ask for anything and it will be given to us." That is just an erroneous statement. In the instances where Jesus said that, He was speaking to people who followed Him, who placed their faith in Him, who identified with Him and whose desires were beginning to align with the Father's because of their association with Jesus. The same goes for us today. Believers are, essentially, modern day disciples.

The Bible is a story, from beginning to end. It exists to show us God's love for those he calls to himself. He chose a people to set apart for himself and through that nation, he would show the world his glory. They rebelled and worshipped other gods, but still he loved them and patiently waited for them to return to him. And he does the same today.

As for the whole issue of women/submission, you're partially right. The story is about Adam & Eve, but Eve wasn't the only sinner. In fact, the error was accredited to Adam. God gave Adam the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not. He knew God's command and disobeyed it when Eve presented him with the fruit. (Ladies, I don't know about you but it scares me to know that we can have that much power over a man. We can be very persuasive when we want to be - I know I don't want to misuse that.)

The Bible is clear on the order of things: "The head of Christ is God, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man" (1 Corinthians 11:3). So that, combined with Eve's deception, is most likely why Paul dictated what he did about women learning in silence & submission. Where that leaves the women of today that are gifted and feel called to preach - I honestly don't know. To be truthful, I'm not clear in my own mind how I feel about that whole issue.

As for Joyce Meyer, she is not the pastor of a church, she is an evangelist and I think there is a difference. No man, as a listener of her conferences, is required to come under her authority, as he might if he were the member of a church of which she pastored. And neither are you under my authority by my pointing out what the Bible says.

 

To get closer to GOD. It's personal as it should be. Do not believe in organized religion to get closer to GOD.

 

We may have people who have been killed in the name of God but the real reason has been for the purpose of conquests. I've always said if you want to see the true purpose of any conflict so who gains the most and who loses the most. In every war and in every level of persecution the owners get more shit to own and the poor get less. It has zero to do with religion or belief, it has everything to do with greed and manipulation.

 

Context? The hypocrisy of it all. The Bible can hardly be thought of as something that speaks to the modern masses because it wasn't written for us. A good place to start would be 'Jesus Interrupted', by Dr. Ehrman. People just can't get past their egocentricity. The ancient Hebrews had their own lives, their own culture, and their own problems that they were writing about. Nowhere in the Bible does it specifically say that black people should obey white people, but it does say that slaves should obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ, and this is something that slave owners used to justify slavery. My point is: nearly all of it is taken out of context because our cultures are so vastly different.

Erroneous? More irony. It's not erroneous at all. When I asked people if they would drink poison (Mark 16:17-18), they all said no because Jesus was only speaking to the disciples. But right there in the texts Jesus (or someone writing as Jesus) says that "anyone" who believes in him will show the signs of the true believer. You've failed to point out to me where he says that only his disciples can ask for anything. If that was the case, you'd think he'd be very clear on it so as not to mislead people.

I opened up my digital Bible since I can't find my physical copy. If you read John 5:13-15, you'll see that what I say is definitely not out of context. You simply have to read John in context.

John 5:13 These things I have written unto you that you believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

5:14 And this is the confidence we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us: 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions we desired of him.

Indeed.

I can't say anything about that. That is your belief.

Eve wasn't the only sinner but she takes most of the blame. Just like Pandora in Greek mythology. I worked with all women for a while and they all complained about their lazy/abusive/cheating mates, and in the same breath professed their love for them. When I see women defending blatantly misogynist literature I can't help but think that it coincides with their subconscious defense of misogyny in general.

When you're unclear about something that you consciously know to be wrong, there's a good chance that brainwashing might be the problem.

It depends on your definition of authority. And it says that women should not be teaching at all; their path to Heaven is through child rearing. This idea was still greatly imbedded in our culture before feminism emerged.

 

That's partially true but a lot of it had to do with religious fanaticism and oppression. Burning Giordano Bruno at the stake had nothing to do with a conquest. It was simply intellectual intolerance. The church has held the world back for so long. Imagine how far we'd be if people like Bruno and Galileo had been allowed to express their thoughts freely.

 

The verses you reference in John 5, I think, are actually in John 15. And again, you have to go back to chapter 13 (it's all one discourse) to see that Jesus is again speaking to his disciples. I don't think the true definition of a disciple has changed that much from Jesus' time 'til now. The function, maybe. We are people who have committed our lives to following Jesus and striving to live the truths He taught because He loved us enough to die for us so that we could have the gift of eternal life.

You point out those specific verses, but are you truly reading them? They do not apply to someone who does not believe in the Person of Jesus Christ! If you believe in someone and what they stand for, you trust him/her and he/she trusts you. When you know you are loved and you have the approval of the one who loves you, you can go to them confidently and ask things of them and if it lines up with what that person would grant, you can expect to receive it. If my son asks me for $50 because he is hungry, he knows, as his mother who deeply loves him and cares for his welfare, that he can expect to get that $50. If, however, he asks me for a million dollars to spend carelessly and for his own selfish use, he knows better than to ask! I know that wouldn't be good for him in the long run.

As for the issue of women teaching, authority, etc., I am uncertain because I haven't spent alot of time researching why Paul would issue the instructions he did, when women did, at times, play a prominent role then and now in advancing the kingdom of God. I do know that at that time, it was not proper for women to speak in public, period. I do not agree with your statement that women are not to teach at all. Read Titus 2:3. And our path to heaven is not through child-bearing. (What about women who can't or don't have children? John 3:16 does apply to anyone, in this instance.) It is through salvation. That scripture is ambiguous and is not supported elsewhere in scripture. Jesus is clear: the only way to the Father is through Him.

We could nitpick about the Bible, truth, faith, etc. until the end of time. The bottom line is: you either believe God exists or you don't, and if you do believe he exists, you either serve him or you don't.

We may just have to agree to disagree, but this discussion is enjoyable. When I discuss issues of faith and apologetics, I strengthen my own faith. So thank you!

 

I never said that it did. But a word can have a denotative and a connotative meaning.

Eternal life and other supernatural suppositions are not of much concern to me.

I never said that they do.

That's a cool philosophy and what not but it doesn't change the facts. There's an African proverb that goes "the chicken's prayer cannot stop the hawk". A good example of what I mean is this: African Americans are more likely than white Americans to go to prison, end up dead, contract AIDS, and have children out of wedlock. This, in spite of the fact that surveys show that black Americans pray and go to church more than white Americans. Essentially, it is the choices that we make in life that sets us apart.

These oppressive and demeaning teachings are expressed in Paul's other epistles too. 1 Corinthians 11:3 explains that "the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man". Men answer only to Jesus, but women answer to Jesus and to men. In verses 5 and 6, Paul also commands that any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered should have her hair shaved off. Men are exempt from this though, since they are "the image and glory of God", while the woman is merely the "glory of man" (verse 7). Verse 10 notes that one reason for women to cover their heads is because of the angels. Women must be modest so they don't tempt God's angels? Instruction is given to women to be silent in church in 1 Corin. 14:34-35, and they are only allowed to ask questions to their husbands at home after church.

http://www.godlesshaven.com/articles/women-bible.html

You ask me "What about women who can't or don't have children?". I didn't write the Bible. There's a lot of things that its authors don't take into consideration - further evidence that it is not the words of a perfect being. There's a law in Deuteronomy about a woman being stoned to death with her rapist because she didn't cry out for help. What if the woman was a mute?

According to Timothy, women will find salvation through childbearing. Read it and weep...or not.

I'm not so much concerned with faith as I am with the texts and their applicability. I don't really care for connotative meanings. I read the stories in context, and the book is supposed to be about teaching Christians how to live Christian lives. Parables have always been present in ancient cultures because their societies were largely illiterate, and the adults learned by hearing stories just like children did. If the stories weren't meant for anyone but the main disciples, they probably wouldn't be in there. Remember the story about Simon and Andrew? Jesus saw them fishing and said "Follow me, I will make you fishers of men". They weren't disciples yet, they were simple fishermen. And so, one thing that you get from the story is that anyone of any class can become a follower of Christ. Simple, logical interpretation.

We will have to disagree on specific issues, but when the larger picture is taken into consideration, there's only right and wrong. My interpretation of Tolkien's History of Middle Earth is a biblical one. The orcs (Elves gone to the dark side) are like fallen angels. Morgoth is the devil. The Valar are the angels and Valinor is Heaven. That is my interpretation based on what I've read, but I could be wrong. Someone could have a different, and possibly stronger interpretation. But some arguments are beyond interpretation. If you say that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and built the pyramids, that would be incorrect. Or if you said that the Bible has no errors, that would also be incorrect. So, yes, we can disagree on details but as to the infallibility of the Bible...there's no argument at all.

 

Praying to God or a milk jug will get you the same three answers.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

 

Damn brotha who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

 

What are you talking about?

 

You're going in every religious thread trying disprove God. I get doing it in one thread but it seems like you're on a mission fam.

 

LOL Not in one post today have i tried to disprove God. God is unfalsifiable so it's impossible to prove or disprove.

 

Then what are you trying to assert? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

 

All I've done is respond to posts. Do have an issue with anything that I've said specifically?

 

I've seen that before. It's a good video, but unfortunately, the logic falls on deaf ears for the most part. You should check out some of the black atheist channels on Youtube.

 

I think you guys misunderstand what prayer is.

 

Not only does it have no statistical validity; it makes no sense in the realm of Christianity. If God already has everyone's plan mapped out, what is everyone praying for? Do they wish to change the mind of a perfect being?

 

You have to be religious to pray?

 

I don't pray... I feel that prayer is generally for losers who like to beg....The Creator gave you everything you already need... you need to just use it to the best of your abiliy to make things happen for self...no need looking for a spook god, when you can look for him within one's self..oh yeah ... just because I don't pray... does not mean that I don't practice affirmation of the ancestors and meditation.