The Ugly Duckling Syndrome!

Think about this one, 7:

Who are the ones who usually step in and say things to black man/white woman couples after the relationships fail somehow, like, "Uh-huh, I knew this was gonna happen!" or " Didn't I tell you to stick with your own kind"?

The same people who were criticizing it from the very start, of course, who are also, the same people who were the influence of the downfall. What did I call these people again? :wink:

Here's a tip: If you EVER come in contact with someone like this, either cut them off, or ignore them completely. It does not matter who they are, what they have, what they can do, where they are, who they know, etc., because if they are against your relationship, then that's just it. You can't persuade the close-minded. Even they can't escape themselves.

 

Also, with Hollywood lending it's helping hand (even if there's a hidden agenda behind it in some way) and people seemingly accepting interracial relationships between black men and white women out in the open MORE and MORE these days, sooner or later, the naysayers won't be that much of a problem anymore, in fact, some of these critics have become advocates for such reasons as being ashamed of their past racism, or accepting their denial of jealousy towards the relationships, and so on.

Personally, I think these relationships will multiply, but, we'll see.

 

True

You had hit it on the head SG!!!!

 

Re: True

TRUE :!:
Keep on SG

 

First, you are saying we exercise Free Will, then you say our choices are conditioned. Which is it? Are we free or not? It is that black and white, cut and dry, ying and yang, man or women. If you step out the circle just even a little bit you are not exercising a Will that is independent.

To get a better understanding of Cause, I will self reflect you statements. Upon these conditions they will produce a preset of conditions/effects/ answers. Be forewarned, I already know the conditions which will give the desired effects. Because as you stated, you believe everything is interdependent: meaning, mutually dependent.

As stated, Free Will is conditioned. So, how are your Choices NOT preordained? You believe Free Will and Choice are interdependent. If your Choices ARE preordained/conditioned, then your actions MUST be preordained. Why? Everything is interdependent, right? I will pose the same query yet again. How do you exercise a Will independent of Choice? If you can do that, then you are by ALL means exercising ABSOLUTE FREE WILL. But, until you can prove that your Choices are NOT preordained, then you are not free at all, nor are you exercising Free Will.

One thing disappears, conditioning the appearance of the next in a series of cause and effect. There is no unchanging substance in them. There is nothing behind them that can be called a permanent Self, individuality, or anything that can in reality be called ‘I.' There is no unmoving mover behind the movement. It is only movement. It is not correct to say that life is moving, but life is movement itself. Life and movement are not two different things. In other words there is no thinker behind the thought. Thought itself is the thinker.

 

As I stated before, Naysayers are only ONE OF MANY CONDITIONS. They alone can not condemn a foundation of relationships, essentially, that is quite impossible, because everything is interconnected. Since actions and performances are not wholly in our power and since nothing is really in our power but our Will- it is on the Will that all the rules and duties of Man are based and established.

 

:lol: I will not stop playing with words. I am just testing your knowledge yet again. Did I not say the choice of words are of utmost importance? I do not want this to be another 20 pages of pointless rebuttals, so I will debunk this argument right now. Now, if you wanted to say we have "limited Free Will" that is a more plausible argument. I can go with that. Free Will is absolute. Limited Free Will is not.

This is very important, we can have limited free will, and thus live as moral creatures creating better futures for ourselves and our society (a very important thing). We should also emphasize that our free will is limited by this necessary connection of matter. We do not have the freedom to defy gravity and make ourselves float upwards, but within the constraints of necessary connection there are still many possible futures. For instance, You and many others can choose to read this, or You and many others can decide to stop reading it. Both are possible futures that obey the laws of physics and the necessary connections between things.

I digress..... Can we continue to talk about the Ugly Duckling Syndrome which is ripe for discussion.

 

I am saying that because of free-will, our choices are conditioned, and without these conditions, we wouldn't have any free-will, therefore, no choices either. Let's say that you step outside of this 'circle' that you are in (which doesn't necessarily determine what your personal attraction will evolve into) and decide to only date black women because it's your personal choice, but then realize that because of what drove you to this choice (i.e. naysayers, racism) you really aren't making your own choice alone, but you did decide to go through with this action on your own. Does this qualify as free-will? Yes, it does, but independence? No, it doesn't.

I never said that choices aren't pre-ordained, in fact, destiny itself is pre-ordained, and it has an impact on karma as well.

In a way, you are answering your own questions here because you may not be able to accept the laws of human nature. How can free-will and choice NOT be interdependent if you can exercise any type of will? Doing so is an act of free-will, which a result of choice, along with pre-ordaination (aided by karma) and the conditions that surrounds us, which we are a part of in our everyday lives. Without all of these elements, then you would be right about free-will.

We both agree on this one.

 

Yes, correct! Naysayers are exercising their free-will by condemning the relationships, just like we exercise our free-will to be in these interracial relationships.

 

No, there is no limit to free-will. Only human capacity.

:lol: You are still thinking of human capacity. As for limited free-will, that is impossible with KNOWLEDGE.

Okay.

 

If you say everything is interdependent, and Choice is conditioned, how are you ACTIONS NOT preordained? This is what I am getting at; to be free, meaning: independent, unrestricted, not under control of another, can not be interdependent with Will. Since Will: an action predetermined by Man, is conditioned and relative. Our Choices are influenced by Man/Will in the constraints of necessary connections as you stated "Elements." Which is why our Free Will is "limited." Our 'freedom' is limited do to the interconnection of Will(which is not free at all).

It is funny you used the correlation to Karma, but Karma is ‘volitional action’ not all action. The theory of Karma should not be confused with so-called ‘moral justice’ or ‘reward and punishment?' The idea of moral justice, or reward and punishment, arises out of the conception of a supreme being, a God, who sits in judgment, who is a law-giver and who decides what is right and wrong. The term 'Justice' is ambiguous and dangerous, and in its name has done more harm than good is done to humanity. The theory of Karma is the theory of cause and effect, of action and reaction; it is a natural law, which has nothing to do with the idea of justice or reward and punishment, which Free Will has every thing to do with Gods, Justices, Rewards and Punishments. Every volitional action produces its effects or results.

Edited: To get back on topic.......

Take the Ugly Duckling for instance, do you really believe she would have interest in black men if she was in fact NOT the Ugly Duckling? You would have better luck with the the "hot blonde" who is dumb as a stump. The Ugly Duckling does not voluntary become one, it is a series of bad life choices which developed this subconscious state.

 

Leaving shaming language behind, the reason I don't agree with the whole label of the Ugly Duckling is because what is ugly to one man is beautiful to another and I've seen it time and time again. I've been found attractive by more white men and quite few black men. I have short hair, no curves but a pretty face and a nice smile, and most black men don't look at me twice, while white men go gaga. Yet, there have been some black men who have found me gorgeous and one of them married me. I have a friend who is short and chunky, and when we go out together it's me that men notice. Yet, to her boyfriend she's a lot more beuatiful than me or than anybody else.That's the most direct way I can think of putting it.
If you remember the story, the ugly duckling was in fact a beautiful swan but the other birds just didn't know it.

 

Yes, I realise that beauty is 'subjective', "in the eye of they beholder", "one man's trash, is another man's treasure" and all other cliched concupiscent conundrums. The Ugly Duckling is not necessarily "ugly" she just does not fit the mold of beauty which all women are judged by, and she does not get the attention from the most attractive of males. As you stated, more "white men" noticed you, not her. This plays a big role in the development of the Ugly Duckling Syndrome. This brings a slew of self-esteem issues, which are a direct reflection of her character and state of mind.

Edited: On another account, studies show that men with "pretty faces" also want women with pretty faces. It does not matter what hue he may be, he will always want to mate with the women with the pretty face. The 'lesser' men are more primitive in their mating habits. I for one prefer a women with an pretty face, if it means 'lesser' body.

 

Seven,

What you are missing is that pre-ordination goes hand in hand with free-will, in fact, actions would have to be pre-ordained, if free-will is also pre-ordained, and I stated earlier that life/destiny is pre-ordained, remember? Keep in mind that free-will is NOT limited because of these 'conditions' you speak of, but only conditioned and pre-ordained.

Now, let's say that you take away all those elements of free-will (choice, action, thought, feeling) and remove all the essential hard-wired conditioning (or DNA) that make up who you are as an individual, then what? What's left for you then? Would you rather be a lifeless phantom, or a conditioned human being with all the choices, actions, thoughts, and feelings, (which are all a result of your conditioning) to exercise free-will?

Do not confuse the correlation of karma that I mentioned with the judgment of said 'gods and 'goddesses.' What you have written about karma is all correct, but because of that explanation you wrote, there is no possibility of 'divine beings' intervening with the natural events of the world, and in a previous thread, I also explained how impossible this is, and if there really is a divine presence among us, who's always watching over the human race, in all of our discourse, actions, and emotions, then why would this said 'almighty deity' interfere in any way with the manifestation of free-will embedded in mankind, if it truly were divine? It would be a lot less divine to enact any type of supernatural and/or paranormal phenomenon at any time during the unfolding course of man's free-will, unless it were going to end the world, wouldn't you say?

Divination would also involve allowing free-will among man to take it's natural course, no matter how displeased with the results this said 'entity' would be.


And, yes, I do believe that the Ugly Duckling's 'conditioning' :lol: would motivate her to seek out black men as an outlet for her insecurity, BUT remember what sunstorm said. There ARE attractive white women out there, who DO have a genuine interest in black men, just like there are ones who are ugly (sometimes ugly as hell) who also have a genuine interest in us, but as far as the synopsis of the Ugly Ducking goes, the same thing you mentioned can be said about white women who are Ugly Ducklings both inside and out, if not just on the inside, so I guess an Ugly Duckling doesn't really have to be externally ugly, now does she? :lol:

 

It seems you do not want to believe our Free Will is limited. That is fine, it's all a matter of opinion, this is America and you have a right to an opinion. I respect that opinion, but your senses of reality are deceiving you. Our mind represents our senses, thus the world we see, taste and touch is different to the real world which causes our senses. For example, our sense of colour is an obvious example of how our mind represents a certain frequency of light. As I stated before, Life is movement and there is no thinker behind the thought. I can 'think' therefore I exist. Therefore reason exists. Therefore Necessary Connection exist. Therefore our Free Will is "limited." Prove me wrong using the utmost logic attainable, with true assertions of factual evidence.

You proclaim we exercise Free Will, but in its truest sense(ourselves!) Will is not free. All of our Choices, Actions, Thoughts, Feelings are relative and conditioned. Even your Choices are limited by Necessary Connection. Your Thought is limited by how much knowledge you obtain. Your Actions are limited by the choices which are preset by Will. Therefore your Free Will is limited. Therefore your Free Will is not absolute. Therefore your Free Will has been conditioned and what we are actually exercising is a Will of thought; not a Will of an Thinker. Because the Thinker is the one who creates the conditions we live in, hence, why most of us are slaves to Economics and Biology.

Edited: As I stated before. To be free is to be independent of conditions, but Free Will is interdependent to Choice. So I will ask again, how are you exercising a Will(this Will being freedom) which is independent of conditions? THINK long and hard on that. Prove to me that you can exercise a Will independent of conditions. Prove to me YOUR Free Will is NOT limited.

_____________________________

First, define what IS attractive. I am not saying there are no attractive White women who do not find Black men attractive. Quite the contrary, I am saying attractive white women ONLY SEEK OUT the Alpha Black Male. And no, not the the wanna be's. Which is again biological. It is just that the Ugly Duckling CAN NEVER get the Alpha White Male, so she tries for the Alpha Black Male.

 

This is how free-will is unlimited.

Again, you are thinking of human capacity, which, yes, is limited.

You and I are exercising free-will right now as we speak, 7.

I was only appealing to your curiosity there. I know you understand that. And, I understand what you mean by this. I haven't disagreed with you on this part.

 

Just a quick note:

However you are happy or unhappy within your own life is determined by free-will itself.

 

You are exercising limited Free Will because you can not prove otherwise. Your explanation is limited to what you understand by your sense of physical knowledge regrading real things. Yes, if you mean the capacity to comprehend reality. Then you assertion is correct. Many perceive reality with their senses, which I stated many times before that is false(naive) reality. You see, I already know your argument, because I have set up the conditions to where you can not justifiably say our Free Will is infinite. You even stated such with, "Human capacity is limited." Which I presume you mean the human capacity to dissociate ourselves from sense/feelings/emotions. My goal with this post is to get you 'think' past your senses, if you want to exercise the limited Free Will you do have. I higher level of comprehension if you will, into the metaphysical of all things.

You are not exercising Free Will by just disagreeing with me, however admirable, it is not a Will free independent of conditions. Quite the contrary, if you were exercising any Free Will you would have concocted and formulated how our Free Will is NOT limited. Since I have an Masters is Abnormal Psychology and Gynecology, I have deduced your argument to where you can not explain it. You can not explain it because your assertion is false, or at least to the knowledge to the way you perceive things. Do not get me wrong, there is "no pun intended" just stating our Free Will is conditioned therefore limited to Necessary Connection.

But now, I really digress leaving you something to think about(no pun intended).

 

I am exercising free-will the very same way you are, by not only just disagreeing with you (which isn't what I was only going on the whole time, and I have already mentioned other assets to it you overlooked again), but by my actions, thoughts, feelings, and values, which may not be like yours, but even so, this is what free-will pertains to. The same thing goes for you in your case, in fact, no one can think things like 'Praise god' or 'Your god fears me' or 'I am more powerful than god' without free-will, now can they?

I see what you are trying to say though. You believe that free-will is limited because of relative conditions which all life forms of mankind are individually subjected to by upbringing, genetic DNA, life choices, and life experiences, but just because those boundaries (all being infinitely variable) are set in place for us all, does not determine that free-will has a limit. Pre-ordination/destiny/karma may have set limits for each of us, however, it all depends on your personal perspective of things. If you believe in limits of free-will, then you, yourself, will live by limits of free-will, but keep in mind that perspective can change if you allow it to.

That, itself, is another manifestation of free-will...

and, along with your synopsis on thoughts being behind the thinker, well, I can easily say the same thing about you in your case, if you were the thinker behind someone else's thoughts, but without free-will, this wouldn't be possible, and our individual conditioning and pre-ordination is how and why our human capacity is limited, as well as how our free-will is NOT. There would be no said conditioning and relativity without free-will, because free-will is the source of why there are pre-ordained conditions.

Even our past lives has an influence on all of this, but those events that took place back then, were manifestations of individuals exercising free-will, which has an effect on ourselves in the present, and our future perspectives. Like I said, it all depends on how you see things...

and, let's say that you take an action to do something on your own without a thinker being behind your thought to do it, but then learn about what your ancestors did in the past that was quite similar to the action you were planning to take earlier, but now, have decided not to go through with that. Why would learning about your ancestors deeds change your mind, if you didn't have free-will?