The Insane Klown Posse! (Why I Hate Conservatives.Pt. 2)

lol,
no really, that was a funny reply.

Though however funny it may be, it still does nothing to help sway my opinion one way, or the other as to if torture for the extraction of information, for the cause of national security is, or isn't justified.

So until the facts are provided otherwise, I guess things will remain business as usual.

 

And thats just sad, because torture, regardless of the reason, is wrong.

And to use "national security" as the excuse is really lame. Do you know how many people have been jailed, killed, and tortured here and in all over the world all in the name of "national security?"

I would hope that our policies would measure a little better than those of places like China and Cuba.

 

Don't get me wrong Jelly. You have a point, but how can anyone expect to truly have any idea of what is pertinent to the cause of protecting Americans, without any facts. If I see evidence, or proof of misalignment of justice, then I'm all onboard, but how can you, or anyone else convince those of us, who have trusted that the reasons why the government says places like GITMO are needed, if there is not any irrefutable evidence to say otherwise.

I think our government is crooked from the word go, either side Dem, or Rep. But maybe we should look to those who stand to benefit the most by killing the Palistinians, and torturing the Muslims. Does Israel, or any other country have any interests in what the U.S. is doing? And if so, then why would the U.S. be hosting a "torture factory", for any reasons beyond the scope of U.S. national security? You said it yourself, if there is no threat of terrorism, then why is this happening?

Interesting you mention China, and Cuba, indeed. Would they be considered Communist countries? Is America practicing policies that would be consistant with communism? Is America becoming a Communist country?

Just a few questions, my Bra.

 

Sorry to jump on this rinnaye, but it is widely known through mainstream media that people are detained indefinitely in Guantanamo Bay without charge and without the chance for a fair trial. Do you have any irrefutable evidence that these people are guilty of something? Do you have any evidence that these people's suffering has been or will be of any benefit to USA inhabitants?

Also, can you please define the word 'communism'?

 

No I can't Rosa, and that's why I'm asking? The questions I pose are not meant in any way to be more than my inquisition. I don't doubt that people are being detained, but where is the proof that they are being tortured? I don't believe any of us little people can truly say if this GITMO situation is right, or wrong, we're not in the government, nor do we know the circumstances that led to their detention. So who can say it's not for the "good of the people?"

com·mu·nism:
1. a: a theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2. a: a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production.
Excerpt: Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

In my opinion, it would be defined as a one world order.

I'm glad you joined in.

 

A couple of links where the US government acknowledges torture at Gitmo, in Iraq, and Afghanistan

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030202054.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2878397/The-awfully-nice-guys-allowing-US-torture-at-Guantanamo-Bay

www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html


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Flipping heck you're a prickly bastard. I was going to add some links but thought you'd jump down my throat for spelling things out for you. What would be the point anyway - when it was backed up by Jellybird you deny it for what it is. I keep wanting to add something of a more personal nature to explain further - but i'm worried what your response would be and ive lost that loving feeling anyway.

btw - where do i sign up for Forum Etiquette 101?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030202054.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2878397/The-awfully-nice-guys-allowing-US-torture-at-Guantanamo-Bay

www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html




Thanks for the links.

You really are true to your names sake Darlin, and very informative, as well.
I appreciate that.

Thanks to your highly appreciated links, I see there is substantiated evidence of these heinous crimes actually taking place, so tell me, can we expect either of the Democratic nominees, or the Presidential front runner Obama, to do anything any different about the GITMO situation, if he is elected to office? And can we trust that he will actually pull out of Iraq as promised? What was it, 90 days after he takes office, something like that I think. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks!

 

these images were from the once makeshift prison ( i can imagine that it's been enchanced, enlarged, and properly manned), Abu Graib located in Iraq... Soldiers pretty much did whatever they wanted to over there with prisoners. The atrocities there had nothing to do with extracting intel and everything to do with a breakdown in leadership.

 

Petty, first let me say, if you served in the Armed Forces, then you have my total respect, and admiration for that.

Even though we shouldn't be in Iraq I still support our boys, who have laid it all on the line, and be willing to give the ultimate sacrifice. Glad you made it back safely too, if that has been your course.

So, have you personally seen the treatment of prisoners over there? And how do the rank, and file feel about the prisoners, and are we just capturing innocent victims, those private citizens, and taking them to the torture factory without just cause, or do at least some of these prisoners been found to be a real threat, and ended up in these "concentration camps" out of just cause?

I've never really met, or talked to anyone who knew first hand. Seems like you do.

 

i'm not a veteran, just a former cadet who likes to keep up with our military



we do have some vets on the boards tho

as for iraq..wars like these make me glad that I did not decide to go through with joining the army...

this war has been based on lies and half-truths from the get-go, thanks to the bush administration. As a soldier, regardless of whether or not you agree with the situation, you're expected to follow your leadership, plain and simple. They want you in Iraq, you're going to Iraq, unless you shoot yourself in the foot to get a medical.

But, our guys and girls are still over in Iraq, sacrificing themselves every month, regardless of what we think or feel.

 

I don't know what's going on first hand, just coming up with conclusions based upon what was disclosed to the general public, by our media. The girl in the photo, claimed that she was influenced by her Sergeant, who approved of abusing prisoners. Common knowledge should dictate that a Sergeant is a leadership figure, who people follow. If your Sergeant is giving you the green light to abuse former enemy combatants (you know, that guy who fired his ak47 at your 30 minutes ago)chances are you're going to do it. Unless you're one of those righteous types, who reports his sarge for mistreating captives.

Again, total breakdown in leadership. If I'm not mistaken, the unit that lady was in, wasn't an Active duty one. It was either a reserve component or a national guard one. Not saying that those units lack good leaders or anything...

 

Let's review what happened here...

Without provocation you jumped all over me, out of nowhere, in what was only your all of first half dozen posts even before you ever felt the need to be "worried about what my response would be." What do you expect me to do? Say thank you for flaming me!

Now you're calling me childish names, and "lost that loving feeling", when in fact, it wasn't there to begin with. So if I'm "prickly" with you, then it may just be due to cause, and effect. :roll:

 

All is fair in love and war

don't want to be tortured?

don't join the military or take part in a war

You're stand on the idea of torture has never been tested, so you can sit back at your computer and take a firm stand on the issue, without worrying about actually backing it up...

I would like to see what you would "resort" to, if you were responsible for hundreds of men and women within your battalion, with a serious need for vital intel to prevent a total clusterfuk...

would you omit torture from interrogation techniques, if all else failed?

would you send troops to die, because you were afraid of getting information from your enemy?

would you lose a war because you were afraid to torture people who knew things?

of course you would have to verify that intel to make sure it wasn't total bullshit, by sending out UAVs, satellites, or small recon forces.... or you could compare it to other pieces of intel you gathered to make sure it jibed together

sometimes people will say whatever, just to stop the pain

other times, people will give up the goods if they figured it wasn't worth being tortured over

 

Rinnaye – ok my tone was off and i didnt mean to pounce on you sorry. I have a tendency to be a little forthright & feisty (half Irish/half british).

Pettyofficer – I can imagine you running around with that smock on your head in camouflage pants throwing mock hand grenades and jumping behind the couch. (this is where i add the smiley emoticon if it worked for my apple). Not sure if you were directing your comments above at me …but how do I back up my moral standing against torture? Or that torture is ineffective? I don't think we should make torture acceptable because it invariably gets used against the innocent - including soldiers. Torture isn’t used to retrieve information - its used to dehumanize, humiliate, break a person down and spread fear.

There is a great book written about the rape, torture and murder of 300,000 civilians in Nanking during WWII (its called The Rape of Nanking – by Iris Chang). Its an extreme case but it articulates better then I ever could what happens when torture is accepted into a collective conscience (whether it be an army, society or race) = we say goodbye to the last vestige of human decency. You say 'all is fair in love and war' - i say 'those who forget history are condemned to repeat it'. Most people caught up in wars are ordinary people, led to do extraordinary things. I dont know about you and most Americans - but i think many people only have to go back 1 or 2 generations to find family who have been divided, tortured, imprisoned, persecuted because of war or branded as terrorists (my family in the 70s).

 

Apology accepted!

Will you accept my apologies as well? It always takes two to tango, and this dance, we danced together.

Now what will it take for me to help you get that loving feeling back?

Welcome Princess!

 

i'm starting to agree with you there

:wink:

 

for one, i don't run around tossing fake m67s. Why would I do that

secondly, conversations such as these pop up, in discussions revolving military theory. I have had some rotc instructors, who were deployed into Vietnam (during that war)and Iraq (during operation desert shield/desert storm), within our airborne divisions (explains why I have the useless skill of pointing out divisional patches in other threads ). I distinctly remember one such discussion being on the morality of killing. Needless to say, some class members asked some of our leadership if they have ever killed before (you know someone's going to ask that question to a decorated retired airborne infantryman, who's spent time fighting in Vietnam). The answer was yes, and then I remember one instructor asking me what I would do, if I was thrust into a situation where I had to take a life on the battlefield. I've never been on active duty, but I have been exposed to "what if" scenarios, because the end result of ROTC is leading men and women, in real life, in battle (if you go into combat arms, anyway) I know killing and torture are two different things, but I just wanted to point something out.

As for torturing the innocent, yes, that is something that should NOT be condoned. As far as I know, certain occupational specialities within our military, require some level of SERE (survival, evasion, resistance, escape) because of the simple fact that our enemies do like to capture people (especially officers and pilots) and use various "shady" methods of interrogation to extract information on our forces. But like you said, sometimes torture is just used to dehumanize soldiers and airmen, and has nothing to do with digging out information, as was the case with Abu Ghraib.

 

Definitely. I support the troops 100%, but I don't support the war at all. I hope that makes sense. Everybody from Bob Woodward to Richard Clarke to the 9/11 Commission has shown that the Bush Admin got a little Iraq happy and decided early on that they were going to Iraq to hunt WMD's whether they had solid proof of their existense or not(they didn't; kats were using decade old documents as current proof).

So, sadly, what it all comes down to is this. 9/11, the worst terrorist attack on the US homeland was never avenged(sadaam and iraq had nothing to do with 9/11). So much attention has been paid to Iraq and it's rebuilding that we haven't paid nearly enough attention to terrorism as a whole, regardless of the so called leaps and bounds reported in the media(they sound more like skips and hops to me). I hate to be a pessimist but there will definitely be more terrorist attacks on this country as a result of what I like to call The Iraq Obsession. We can only hope and pray that when it comes, it won't affect you and yours.

I understand that these types of things take time to clear up but we've been in Iraq waaaay to long to not have accomplished more than we have and it's all because of some key mistakes that were made during our initial campaign there, primarily the security of the Iraqi people.

As for the issue of torture, I believe it's something that was prevalent before this all came to light. There are some things we're seeing that are coming to light, but in no means shows that it was brand new. Do I condone it? No, but when it comes to wars and the collecting of vital information..........s*it happens. It's not pretty. Police have been known to do it in order to get a person to give an honest confession :roll: . And the sad part is sometimes they get away with it. If the police do it, I hate to even think of what their big brothers in the CIA and FBI and military are up to. *shudders*

That's something I've been seriously thinking myself lately. They do just a little too much political pandering both presently and historically. However, I'd trust the Democrats before I trusted the Republicans, ie this fiasco the Bush Admin has caused. This whole Iraq fixation thing would have been less likely to happen with a Dem in office.

I think George Carlin once said, "When I hear someone talking about political solutions, I know I am not listening to a serious person." Looking back on some of the things that politicians have promised in relation to what they've actually done, you have to wonder.....

 

Would you be willing to put your life on the line, over a lie?

How would you feel if you had loved ones, who died over a lie?

Would you be willing to KILL another human being, who did nothing to you, over a lie?

3 questions that I propose to anyone and everyone in this thread...because I know they run through the heads of many people, affected by this "war."

Everytime a soldier gets killed by a sniper's bullet, everytime a marine battalion is sent into bloody towns like "Fallujah," (which is where they took a lot of casaulties, trying to quell that town) I really feel sorry for them. They enlisted into the military for various reasons, but I doubt they enlisted, to kill other people in a war, let alone die in a one, that was based on a web of crockery.

Now our goal has shifted towards a more humanitarian one, which is to "free the iraqi people." While this may be a solid reason to fight, it wasn't the sole purpose of going to that country in the first place. Our government hyped up the idea that Saddam may have been housing nuclear weapons, along with having ties to terrorists, who attacked us on 9/11.