Steve Nash Double Swirling Gone Wrong!!

Well the only reason she sees herself as White is because even though she knows she is half black (probably more Sub-Saharan ancestry than you and a lot of black Americans), her parents and everybody around her calls her white.

She identifies her father as black but clearly identifies herself as white while stressing that she is half black

Her being half black has no relevance to her being white and identifying as white



I guess if somebody had been force feeding her a "one drop" theory and for her identifying herself as white is "denying her heritage" or that she is a contaminant who contaminates what is known as "white" she would probably be very different

 

You're probably right. However, it's not a case of force-feeding. That is the law in the United States, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. As a result, it's not smart for parents to foster something in a child that they know the broader society will not accept. While you nurture as much self-confidence as you can, you make sure they know the realities. Similar to the way black parents in the 1950s and 1960s taught their children not to defy whites, because right or wrong, you could suffer harsh reprisals for such defiance. That's a common coping strategy in an environment where you control neither the rules nor the players.

 

But thats because you choose to see yourself that way. Im not in a position to tell you how to feel

but truth be told without ancestry from various places like Europe and the Americas, you would not exist and thats the fact. Your ancestry is from all over the world and that in itself is unique and a good thing. they are all a part of who you are

So i dont see any reason to identify with one over the other

The blood in your vein comes from all those places.

but i guess it is what you convince yourself you are.


For me it is actually ok however you choose to identify. Thats your right. If you see yourself as black then I would reference you that way

A lot of people have this wrong idea that I am bothered about how people classify themselves.


Im personally ok if George Bush or Rush Limbaugh identifies himself as black also. I would reference them that way

What I dont get though is people like you telling other people that choose to identify as white that they are "denying their heritage" like you did with Pueto Ricans. also people on here agitating that so and so is this race.

Doesnt make an atom of sense

 

There was no national one drop rule in the US to my knowledge so there is absolutely no reason why it should it should be endorsed as some sort of national identity


edit:



I just wanted to add that I am quite sensitive to this issue. i dont want anybody to feel i am not.

But my world view is very different





Consider the girl in that video and her world view.

The word "passing" does not exist in her world view even if she knows American history hundred percent

Every white person knows her biological father is a black immigrant but refer to her as white.

her father being black and her being half black is in no way conflicting with her being white.

In the world around her you can be half black and regarded as a white girl at the same time.

Infact you can be the child of two black West african but still be regarded as a white girl like in the case that I posted earlier by the average white person




to an American, that is hard to fathom. Most Americans black or white automatically cant understand how a half black person who everybody knows her father is black is seen as white. Nor can they understand why a white society would simply identify the child of two black west Africans as white

and some people try to impose an American lense on every issue even when it does not apply.


But I understand the role of society in molding people. We do not live in a vacum. Society affects us somehow.

However the types of arguments that insist on somebody being a particular race is pointless and frankly a waste of time

 

The one drop has been official US practice since its founding. The first census ever performed in the US required counting blacks even down to the precise percentage of black 'blood' (i.e. quadroon, octoroon, etc). The one drop rule is also the accepted standard when determining if a person is a given minority for the use of certain government programs, etc. For Native American counting the smallest accepted standard is 1/16th. Initially a social practice, it was later codified in some states in the post-Civil War and early 1900s during the Jim Crow era in the southern United States. "Tennessee adopted such a "one-drop" statute in 1910, and Louisiana soon followed. Then Texas and Arkansas in 1911, Mississippi in 1917, North Carolina in 1923, Virginia in 1924, Alabama and Georgia in 1927, and Oklahoma in 1931. During this same period, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, and Utah retained their old "blood fraction" statutes de jure, but amended these fractions (one-sixteenth, one-thirtysecond) to be equivalent to one-drop de facto."

With regard to the girl in the video, the issue of 'passing' is not applicable because she lives in an era in which there are no official sanctions for being black that she is trying to avoid by 'pretending' to be fully white. That is what 'passing' is: the deliberate attempt to deceive the dominant white majority into believing that you too are fully white in an attempt to take advantage of opportunities and advantages not allowed to non-whites. She is not denying her black parent or hiding, she is simply making a decision based on observable physical appearances, not attempting to assert that she is one race over the other. Perfectly understandable.

And with regard to how I choose to see myself, I make a decision based on the contemporary circumstances in which I find myself, and those circumstances are as a person of African descent, universally viewed as such, with a variety of inputs into my racial and ethnic makeup, only 1 of which is socially or politically relevant. Were I in a dark-skinned environment, populated solely by full-blooded black Africans perhaps I wouldn't feel as black. But since I am a black minority member of a white majority society founded on white American-style racism, that is the most relevant aspect of my reality. Were I to be the suspect of a police manhunt, the APB would state my race as black. In school I am categorized as black and in the job market I am treated as black. Claiming to be white and touting my white ancestry would get me bounced out of any job interview as either schizophrenic or an idiot, regardless of how many whites may 'grace' my family tree. People are quite free to have whatever world view they choose. I have a unique one as well. But willful ignorance of the reality in which one finds oneself and the world view largely shared by the majority of US society (and by a greater or lesser extent as a byproduct of US cultural/economic/military hegemony, the world) is not wise, healthy or safe.

The facts of the origin of non-African blacks are the facts, whether I like them or not. It is not a case of "choosing how I see myself". Claiming that I am a white Englishman or a white Spaniard because of a variety of chattel slavery relationships in my family history does not make it so. I am quite happy with myself and the lack of historical continuity within my family history doesn't bother me much because I had nothing to do with the injustices, however horrible they may be, done to my ancestors. But they are a fact of my existence, period, and I do not lose any sleep agonizing over them.

 

"One drop" rule actually came into effect in some states just this past century. Mixed people who were white in appearance were also accepted as white in some cases before that. and it was never a national law

there was also a "one drop" rule in some states for Native Americans

In America today, what you have is white people with Native American blood

America's founding fathers actually specified that a cross between a white man and a Native American is a native American

But nobody takes that seriously today. Nobody is going around trying to shove that down peoples throat today


That has resulted in a shift in what is percieved as "White"

In todays America you have White people who have native American blood

People who have native American blood are simply refered to as white eg Angelina Jolie, Jonny Depp, Megan Fox etc

It is normal to view mixed with native American ancestry as white even though everybody knows about their native American ancestry publicly

Native American ancestry does not mean you are not white unless you hang out with racist site members. The average American white person sees a mixed native and white person like Angelina or Shania Twain as white



Thats exactly why it is just as normal to view people who are half black but look white in appearance as white
unless you subscribe to a retarded theory that nobody pays attention to. I dont see Native Americans insisting on this one drop thing

There is nothing unusual about somebody who is part black as being white


heck if we go by absolute percentages then a lot of white women on this website have black ancestors. I dont see how that means that they are not white women

If Tammy strong found out she had a black great grand parent tommorrow, she still remains a white woman to me

 

The one-drop rule was codified only after slavery ended (in the Jim Crow South) because prior to that black people were not considered human beings. But it existed as a practice for determining a black's ancestry since the beginning of African chattel slavery in this country. Mixed people were treated as white only if the majority of their ancestors were white or if they were not known.

 

Your decision is understandable

but if Police identification was the basis for deciding a persons percieved "race", then Nicole Ritchie, Wenworth Miller etc would all be identified as white if pulled over by police which would make them white in your eyes then right?

 

As far as whites with Native American ancestry, few whites go around touting their Native American identity unless it is a significant component to who they are. The 1/16th standard is still used to determine whether one is Native American or not, particularly with regard to census and claiming protected status in discrimination cases. The primary racial dichotomy existing in the US today is the black/white one. It is the 'racial' difference that is starkest and most readily identifiable.

 

No. I was citing the police id as an example of why my white ancestry is irrelevant to me, because it does not significantly modify the way I am treated or viewed, nor does it lessen the discrimination I face in life. And further, in the Ritchie & Miller examples, if they were known to be 'non-white' or 'black' that is what they would be referred to as by white police officers. Whether you like it or not, race is still one of the most salient factors in US life. A great case in point would be Lena Horne, who was never, ever, accepted as white in the US. Looking 'white' is not enough to be considered white in the US. You must both appear white and not have anyone know about your non-white ancestors. Once they are known, goodbye white status.

 

I dont see the relevance of this issue that you keep insisting on it as a valid measure today for people everywhere.

when Hollywood directors wanted to cast a woman of Italian descent for a movie, they chose Jennifer Beals who they know is part black and cast her as a white woman

when they cast "the Rock" in a movie potraying him as a dad, they cast his children with white kids even though they know he is part black


the girl in that video does not subscribe to white supremacy at all.

She is half black and sees herself as a white woman. Montel Williams obliged and refered to her as a white woman through out

even one the twins born in Ohio who are half black, one was described as a white person in the video I posted above



its odd because the only people who keep going on and on about this one drop thing today are people who call themselves black

The average person does not give a single hoot about it

Its an observation that I have made for many years now which only gets re-inforced everytime

 

Thats what you keep trying to convince yourself of. I dont understand this complex at all

Many known people in America talk about their non-white ancestry and make it public

Shania Twain for example talks about her Native American ancestry. Everybody in country music knows that. But she remains a white woman in everybodys eyes

Same with Angelina Jolie and same with Megan Fox, Johnny Depp and countless others

so I dont know where you get your own ideas from

 

American media refer to people who are part black as white. I posted a lot of links about this not too long ago on this thread

This your argument line is to create a narrative which does not exist. I posted links where people who are half black were refered to as white


Something tells me that people like you have this narrative of what you think it means to be "white" that if you were dating a white woman from this website and found out later that she had a black ancestor, you would feel a massive dissapointment because you would no longer be messing with a "pure" white woman


but such a thing as a "pure" white person does not exist in reality, biology or genetics


It only exists in the head of kooks like stormfronters and those who subscribe to their views


and going just by absolute numbers

A lot of the white women on this thread actually would have black ancestors so i dont even see what the big deal is about calling people who are part black white

 

I don't insist on it, it is a fact of life in the US. I do not, nor have I ever said, that is the only valid measure for people to judge themselves by. However, I work in governmental affairs and for every single governmental agency I worked at, race was determined or viewed in this way (one-drop, black/white dichotomy). In the examples you cite, you seem to be talking about social acceptance, which is not what I am primarily concerned with. I focus primarily on legal and official mechanisms, not social acceptance.

Given the fact that the Rock is half Samoan and half black (not 100% at that) his children could display a great deal of physical variety, depending on who the mother was. As for Jennifer Beals, she can play any role she likes - she's an actor and that's what they do, play roles. She is racially indistinct enough to embody anything from a black lesbian (the L Word) to a white ethnic female welder (Flashdance).

I don't know what part of the country you reside in, if you are in fact even in the USA. However, I am from one of the most openly racially hostile parts of the US, Chicago and St. Louis. Race there is a local obsession and it shapes almost every single aspect of life. That is why I moved to South Florida, to get away from it, because of the distorting effect it was having on my marriage to my former wife who is not a US national. In the midwest, everyone is concerned about race. It shapes local, state and federal politics. We have the highest degree of racial segregation existing in the nation other than Boston, MA. The Midwest is one of the places that is openly aggressive toward interracial relationships. Whites here are generally more racially hostile than on the East or West Coasts, in my observation. This is the environment in which I was raised and socialized. Race is far less relevant for me in Florida than it is in Illinois and Missouri.

 

the first paragraph is what you keep telling yourself. If Wenworth Miller walked into a bank for a home improvement loan and refused to state his race, his race would be reported as white on the reports kept and sent to the government for goverment purposes

You are the one who has mirred yourself in this one drop belief and you seem to find it impossible to extricate yourself from it


When I say that the only people who keep going on and on about this one drop thing are people who call themselves black, its not a temporary observation. Its what Ive observed for many years here in the US

I cant understand the complex behind it

 

Again, with reference to the Shania Twain example, she may talk about it, but she does not identify with it. She is not living on a Native American nation/reservation. She is not practicing Native American rituals. Many white people say they have a Native American ancestor, but they identify as white because that is how they are treated and that is what is significant for them. Further, because the physical differences between Native Americans and whites are less extreme, they are less obvious. And AGAIN, the primary racial faultline along which US racism and racial attitudes lie is the black/white one. If most US-born whites were half-black, I'm sure there would be a different treatment of having black ancestry. A person does not have to claim to be anything but what they choose, but if they say they are white and that they have no black blood, that would be de facto 'denying their ancestry'. And as for Wentworth Miller, if he were trying to get a bank loan and didn't fill out those forms he would be instructed to do so. We have no proof what a bank employee would put down, particularly if they in fact knew he was of black ancestry. Nevertheless these are meaningless anecdotes, hypothesizing about them essentially worthless.

I am amused by someone who claims to not be a US-born person, claiming to have superior insights on the peculiar US obsession with race. Many of your statements sound like those of a white person who denies race or says that it's all in the minds of black people. Nothing could be farther from the truth. And where I'm from, white people do not refer to someone they know to have non-white ancestry as white. They say "she's white and...". Where I live they ALL do this. However you are entitled to your own opinion.

You don't need to understand the complex behind it. You are not an African-American. You are not a white American. You are free to go on and deny race and racism like white racism deniers. Black people didn't dream up or imagine the existence of racial prejudice. And the views of black people in the US on race are the product of a complex set of historical variables too lengthy to go into here. The one-drop rule and historical racism among them. I have no idea why we feel that identifying who is a member of our historically disenfranchised group is significant. Perhaps it is because we have spent 400-500 years being abused and must now endure people who act as if you can just turn off social phenomena like a light switch with no lingering effects. However, I am comfortable keeping my own counsel on this matter. Thank you.

I also must caution you against making statements regarding what I keep trying to convince myself of or where I get my ideas from. You do not know me, nor the unique historical circumstances that have shaped my life, although I have taken great care to elucidate them here for the purposes of greater understanding for the sake of this discussion. I have shared with you my own racial/cultural background as well as the race and origin of my soon-to-be ex-wife (Spain), and yet you dare to make offensive statements about what you think I would say if a white woman I was involved with was known to be "less than white"! My wife openly embraces the non-white aspects of her Iberian identity and she is the mother of my child. It had no bearing at all on the love I felt for her. In my community growing up, the whites I have known and grown up around are almost uniformly, with the exception of the Jewish community and the white leftist political community, highly racist. You have no idea how I would feel about anything, and extrapolating from my statements or assuming is, not only blatantly incorrect, but also highly patronizing and insulting. Thank you for the spirited debate. It is now concluded.

 

.
There is no intended insult in any my posts and I dont claim to know the exact circumstances of your racial experience. I apologize if I came accross as patronizing

You were actually the one accusing people earlier in this thread of denying their heritage if they looked European and identified as white. You seemed to think you know what they should identify as when in reality, they are 100% correct to identify as white if they choose regardless of how many black ancestors they might have. You seem to have a complex with regards to what it means to be "white" and you seem to take it to be more than it actually is, which is a contrived identity. All "race" identities are


With regards to your experiences, the same people that would describe an Angelina Jolie as white and native American would be the first to list Angelina Jolie if you asked them to name their favorite white actresses. Same with Shania Twain. After describing her as white and native American, they would be the first to describe her as one of the best white female country musicians ever.


And you might not realize this but to people from outside the US, insisting that everybody subscribe to a "one drop ideology" comes accross as silly and accussing people of "denying their heritage" just because of how they choose to identify is even more so

 

Orejon Iykeg is either a troll or a fricking loon. Either way he's offering nothing to this forum. His obvious disdain with being consider black even if you have white ancestry is getting way past redundant and swimming in the realm of pure hysteria. His examples of the American media calling babies with black parents white is fucking flimsy considering only one of them took place in the US and everyone else was in a foreign country.
He's unsuccessfully trying to push his sense of morality on people who already agreed with him about the one drop rule being a false doctrine.
Well Iykeg you're not black buddy. Happy you fucking loon.

 

you need to free your mind from the mental captivity you have but yourself in

Society did not place this on any body. Maybe it did in times past but as of today, you choose that kind of mentality for yourself.

Look at what you obssess over. People not "calling themselves black" and people "having disdain for being called black"

The thing you obssess over has practically close to zero value to you or humanity at large


the bigger question is why you find yourself stuck on largely irrelevant issues like those and why if a person refuses to be sucked into a similar captive state of mind, you start yapping stuff that makes absolutely no sense at all

Yapping Loon, troll etc does not change your mindset dude.


just remember that it does you absolutely no good whatsoever to keep clutching and obsessing about the things that dont help you in any form

 

We're not going to see eye to eye so there's no need for us to talk.