Richard Dawkins..

http://pewforum.org/Faith-in-Flux.aspx

 

No he wouldn't. The danger he presents is his ability to kill you. As long as he still has that ability, it doesn't matter what tools you've taken away from him. Dead is dead, I doubt it matters to the deceased what tool they were killed with.

I doubt you could offend me Reggie. I believe you are entitled to hold any opinion you like, just as I am. Your opinion differing from mine isn't offensive to me.

I'm a very logical person, however I am an equally spiritual person. Faith is the one thing in my life that I do not seek to explain, because I simply know that it defies explanation... that is after all the point. It's not that I put faith in something when I'm not sure it exists, it's that I put faith in something I have no doubt exists. How do I know? I just do, which again defies logic, but that's faith. I cannot transfer something I feel to you, it's either something you feel, or you don't. My faith has nothing to do with having suffered a traumatic experience, though faith has made several of those far more bearable for me. I honestly cannot remember a time when I wasn't filled with faith, I really think I was born with it.

Well good, something we can finally agree on. :smt038

 

I almost forgot Chi, thanks for reminding me to point out that my mother was not actively religious and my father was Agnostic, and yet I've always believed.

 

How do they define unaffiliated? Is it a person that is agnostic, atheists, or is it a person that isn't affiliated with a religion but still believes in god? Even if you are not affiliated we still live in a society dominated by religion. The influences are coming from all sides. Imagine living in a society where the vast majority of people were agnostic or atheists. Instead of being surrounded by religion they would be surrounded by non-believers. What are the chances of a child in that society growing up to be religious?

Oh didn't you criticize me for using Pen and Teller as a source. You used a religious website as a source. Wouldn't they skewed any results in their favor?

 

All of the above. As do you -- you have referred to your accepted citizens as "Atheist, Agnostics, and non-religious people".

High, apparently. In the modern world, individuals are influenced heavily by members of other societies. Your society will be a part of the global community, and you can't cut off communication if you want an effective, successful world. I know China's trying, but then you have to give up Google, and who really wants that?

Jesus (pun intended) Christ.


See that little banner at the top of the page? Where it says "a Project of the Pew Research Center"? Yeah. Um. Do you really not know who they are?

 

I don't want to tell you how you feel is wrong but when it comes to religion and the afterlife nobody knows what is out there. You have hope and faith that what you believe is true. You have convinced yourself that what you believe is true. There is a man 6,000 miles away in the middle east that is willing to fly a plane into a building because he also believes that his faith is the truth. I'm assuming you are Christian. One of you have to be wrong, how do you know its not you? You don't?

I'm agnostic and I will probably die that way. I could never see myself being atheist, even though believers and atheist have opposite beliefs they both share an arrogant stand of believing they know something that they really don't. It all comes down to one question for me. How can nothing create something? I would be willing to accept that there is a deity out there but where did that deity come from. Who created it, that created it. It never stops. I would also believe that there is no God in the universe. But 0+0 doesn't equal 3. How can the universe start from nothing as the big bang theory suggest. Until someone can answer that question in logical manner then I will remain in the middle.

 

That's never going to happen, because faith isn't quantifiable. I think Agnostic is a good choice for you given your beliefs. However I will say this, I am a Christian, I do know my beliefs to be correct, and I didn't have to convince myself of anything, I just know. As I said there is no way to translate that for you, it's something that I am simply certain of with absolutely no shadow of a doubt. It's not something that I learned, or that was taught to me, I've always just felt it. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate your point of view on the matter, I simply know your point of view doesn't work for me.

 

Well it seems the more educated a society is the less religious they are. I wonder why? My society would stress education. I wouldn't ban contact from the outside. I don't know what you are trying to say in the last statement. I don't if you are just being smart or serious. I will go with the former since you don't like me.

 

I'm saying the Pew Research Center is well known and highly reputable and trying to compare it to Penn & Teller makes you look like a complete idiot. In the future, you would do yourself a world of good by researching, even if it's just to click the "about" page now and then, before you post. (eta: you probably won't, so let me just say: It's not a religious site. It's a site that studies religious trends, as a part of a larger group that studies stuff. Heard the term "pew study"? I hope you have.) I'm not saying this because I don't like you, I'm saying it because your suggestion that their research would be biased pro-religion because it's on a "religious site" is a shocking display of nothing good.



Then again, you also seem to think facism is a good place to start when building a community, so I suppose I'm the one to blame for indulging this in the first place.

 

I respect that you have faith Esp but I have to correct you on something. You don't actually know your faith is correct because you said faith can't be quantified and knowledge is quantifiable. So I think it's more accurate to say you feel that your faith is correct because feelings like your faith are intangable.

To answer Reggie's question about how you know God is real is the same as asking if atoms are real or if air is real. All you need to know these things always were and always will be. We are restricted by our physical bodies so the idea that something doesn't have a beginning or an end is hard to comprehend. God exist if no other reason than we exist. We are truly walking miracles we just choose not to acknowledge it.

 

You may think as you like Andrae, and I do appreciate that what you've said is a logical conclusion to draw, however I don't feel my faith is correct, I know it is. I can't quantify it for you, or anyone else, as I said I just know. However I will say that I am as sure of it as I am sure that if I don't breathe, I'll die. I understand that some people have to seek, but some just know. That's something that is impossible to convey or prove to another person, hence what I meant by it not being quantifiable. That doesn't mean I'm not still 100% certain of it, I assure you I am. I have never once questioned, because I know, therefore questioning would be useless. Why question what I already have the answer to?

I realize this is one of those areas where that's difficult for a lot of people to appreciate. It's not the first time I've run into this type of discussion, given my beliefs on the subject, I get questioned often. I actually had a preacher question the depth of my faith once, he couldn't understand how I could be so steadfast and certain. As I've said, it is not something I will ever be able to make anyone else fully understand, it's just not possible. But if you could look inside my mind for a second I'm sure you'd get it. I just know, and no amount of questioning, or people insisting that's not possible will change that. I assure you there have been times in my life that would have made most people question God or their faith in Him, but I never have and I won't.

 

WOW!!! No offense but attitudes like yours are the reason why the World Trade Centers are no longer standing. Your stance plus the added aggressiveness of men starts holy wars. The only thing that I am that certain of are things that I know are true. Anything short of a FACT can be debate in my book. But I will end there because I know from experience that debates about someone faith can turn bad.

 

LMAO! This debate isn't going to turn bad on my account Reggie. Nothing you will ever say will dissuade me one little bit, it can't be done, not on this subject. I'm open minded and willing to entertain other points of view on all subjects, but on the subject of faith, my stance simply won't change.

As for your comparison of me to a terrorist, that doesn't hold either. I have deep, unshakable faith, and that means I value human life... all human life. I would never condone killing anyone to further my beliefs, or agenda. There is no organized religion that I'm aware of that does not place value on human life, nor is there one that tells you to go out and kill people who get in your way. There are battles in most religious history, but the battles didn't involve murdering innocent people for the sole purpose of making a point. That's what terrorists do. Terrorists are cowards and idiots to believe that God would sanction murder to prove a point.

 

You just have such a disdain for me that I can feel the angry coming through the computer monitor. I didn't notice the study done by Pew Research Center. I did a quick sweep of the website because it was like 2 in the morning and I was tired. The only thing I saw is Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. With a name like that wouldn't you assume that the site is an religious site also? I would do world of good by researching? In that other thread I was the only person that posted any studies or anything of that nature.

Where did I say I was a fascist? This is something that many people do here in America that I don't like. People act like Communism, Socialism, Fascist, etc are bad. Its not bad its just another way of living. There is no right or wrong way to live. Its all subjective. One could argue that capitalism is a modern form of slavery. You have companies like Nike selling shoes that are made by 9 yr old kids working 17 hrs a day for pennies, and then they turn around and sell the shoes for $150. Capitalism is no better than the rest its just different.

 

I'm saying it can turn bad because I know how defensive people get when it comes to religion and faith. I think people get defensive about it for two reasons. For one people don't like to be told how they live or act is the wrong way of doing so. Number two religion has major elements illogical events and ideas present in it and I think even most religious people know this but it something that you hope and want to believe is true. Jonah living in a fish or whale stomach for 3 days? A world wide flood that covers the tallest mountains but only rained for 40 days and 40 nights. Do people actually realize how much water it would take to cover Mount Everest(30,000 ft)?

When I was religious and would hear arguments presented by atheist I would get really mad and defensive. Why did I get mad, because what they said made sense and what I believe doesn't on some level and knew this, but religion was something that I wanted to believe even though it question logic and reason. If you have reached the point where your faith is no longer faith but something that you feel is absolute truth then nothing I or any other person can will make you defensive.

ESPY I'm not saying you are going to kill someone with like a terrorist would do but how strongly you are devoted to your faith with the personality of a man, in the right society could be very dangerous. I'm not going to say that I condone what terrorist do but apart of me respects a person that is willing to give their life for something they believe in.

 

I agree with a lot of what you saud Reggie. You're right there is no right or wrong way to live. Economic and politcal systems are tools just like hammer and nails. We can choose to build beautiful homes or caskets its up to us. I agree that many of us who take offense to things that challenge or beliefs especially when we have no logical arguement but its easier to leave the faithful to their beliefs as long as it harms none so be it.

 

I'm reasonably bright, I get that the Bible is full of occurrences which defy logic and/or reason. However, He's God, and He's called The Almighty for a reason... He can do anything He chooses to. It may not be scientifically sound, or seem reasonable, but He did it and in my mind there is nothing that is impossible for Him. That's where the faith comes in.

You got mad because you didn't have true faith, and you knew that. If you truly believed beyond any shadow of doubt, nothing anyone said could upset you, nor sway your thinking. When I know I'm right, I'm just right and I don't care who thinks otherwise. Ultimately you have to believe what you feel, you don't feel God, I very much do. It doesn't make either of us deficient, or ignorant, or crazy, we just think differently. There's no reason for me to get mad or defensive about that, as your lack of faith in no way impacts my abundance of it.

I agree that's very compelling, as it shows a level of dedication and loyalty to a belief that many people simply don't display or are not capable of holding. However, though I have faith, that's doesn't mean I'm stupid. If someone came to me and told me that God wanted me to kill a whole bunch of folks for Him, not only would I not blindly accept that, I'd ask God about that directly. I'm not saying that I don't believe God speaks to people, because I know He does, I'm just saying anyone who thinks He would ever ask you to harm innocent people to further your beliefs is a little off. That may be what I appear to be to you, but like I said I'm not stupid and I would never accept a suggestion of God's will from someone else... and before you point it out, that's not what I do in church either. Yes there is a preacher, and he gives a sermon, but I don't accept his interpretation on everything. I do my own research and glean my own meaning from scripture and sometimes it doesn't agree with what the preacher thinks. It's my faith, and it's my soul on the line, I'm going feel what I feel and I'll pay the price if that's wrong. I accept that, I'm perfectly fine with it.

I will say on the subject of terrorists that I don't respect them for being willing to die for their beliefs, I pity them because they are so lost and easily misguided. I think it must be a really rude awakening to think you're going to wake up surrounded by virgins only to find that you've woken up in a considerably warmer, and virgin free place. I'm not saying they all go to Hell, because only God makes that determination, but baring some last minute revelation the instant before they die, I think it highly likely.

 

Espy the Old Testament is filled with stories where he asked others to harm other people. God has no problem eradicating or asking man to eradicate others for him. That's why the old testament never made sense to me. It seems a little egotistical to feel the need to remove others who don't agree with and it shows a limitation in your power if you need others to do it for you. I strongly believe in a God but I'm very skeptical of any doctrine that claims there is only one truth and one way especially Christianity and the Islamic faith which were forced on entire nations after they lost a military conflict. Like you my faith in God is unshakeable. The vehicle in which the message is delivered is suspect. Way too much arrogance and the belief God needs us to follow and obey or else. The threat of punishment sounds like a path to oppression not salvation.

 

I never said it didn't happen, I said I'd question any direction that came through a middle man. God spoke to people directly, or through angels, they had no doubt that the directions were Divine, thus they carried those out. I do believe God still speaks to people, and if I knew it was God talking to me, I wouldn't question. I also don't question that obedience is rewarded and disobedience punished. However, I think you can believe in God and not necessarily adopt all that the Bible teaches. I personally think you have to consider occurrences in the Old Testament in the context of the time it was written and then much of what seems odd, or questionable makes sense, at least to me. That's one area where I tend to veer from the church. I think you have to take the basics taught in the Bible and apply them to modern times, some things don't work in the here and now that worked back then. Despite being a Christian and having very strong faith in God, I'm pretty open-minded on a lot of things the church isn't. I also know that more atrocities have been committed with supposed religious justification than for any other reason. Anyone can take what's in the Bible and twist it to their own purposes, that doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean you should accept what they're telling you. God gave you a brain and He expects you to use it. I have blind faith in God, but that doesn't extend to human beings, those I question.

 

I to feel they are misguided and lost because they grow up an environment they believes that is okay. But should God really send them to hell for being raised in a society like that? What about the 8-9 year old kids in worn African nations killing people because that is what they were forced to do. Some of these people are never really given a chance. ESPY if you were giving the wrong information should God punish you for your ignorance especially with so many religions and variations of those religions. Hypothetically if the Islamic faith turned out to be true should God send you to hell because you had the misfortune of being born in a society or country that is heavily Christian? Can God really expect you be Islamic in this country? If I was God and you practice the wrong religion to the best of your ability I think you should be rewarded regardless if you are wrong or right.