No one's talking about Steubenville?

I may not have lived as long as you, but I have been all over the world and I speak for me when I say I DO NOT feel this insecurity around men nor have my female relatives and friends expressed this. Rape culture is not even on our radar of daily thoughts. You are almost fear-mongering.

 

To an extent, I agree with this.

Am I vigilant when I'm in a store or walking in the street (especially alone and especially at night whether I'm with people or not)? Am I always hyper aware of my surroundings? Absolutely.

But it isn't so much my fear of being raped being at the forefront, it's more just general safety (like not wanting to be mugged or have my purse snatched).

They tell women to be aware of their surroundings at all times. I am. But I don't normally feel fear when I'm out in public. It's just something I've "programmed" myself to do.

I pay attention to men's footsteps as I pass them in the street. Absolutely. But I don't feel fear. I just make sure they keep on walking.

But I would think most people would do the same. Men can be just as much in danger as women on the street.

 

Sorry but when I was in middle school the thought of a woman having sex with more than one man at the same time, willingly or against her will, was a foreign concept.

The experience of your male relative IMO wasn't a normal right of passage for most 15 year old boys. I was a virgin when I was 15.:smt120
I was a super-virgin at 12-13 years old.

We didn't have the internet either, so where would a kid back then even learn about GBs or running trains?? None of my friends did it. None of the girls I knew did it. Hearing about a girl giving a guy a BJ back then was s-c-a-n-d-a-l-o-u-s.

About as heavy as it got was guys dissing a chick because she was slutty;i.e. she'd slept with more than two guys in school.

Before hip-hop was in the 1970s, so what is it we're talking about here??
I was still learning to pee straight and not wet the bed in the 1970s.

BTW when people talk about someone who got a train run on them, there's no assumption that it was consensual.

Might help to remember that some folks call it gang rape, since it's doubtful the woman involved gave her consent for some of those guys who were no doubt strangers to fuck her, but hey whatever.


No, where I'm from GBs and trains just weren't a topic of everyday discussion at recess in middle school.

 

Six percent isn't a small amount, and one in six women isn't either. This has nothing to do with the men in my life, personally. Im very picky. And that's the thing. You see this as a personal problem, and I see it as a societal one. It isn't about my fear, specifically. It's about the fact that women live in a different world than men do, because we are told over and over again how we should limit our lives to avoid sexual violence, when in fact it's rampant, and predominantly caused by those who love us. My life should not have to be limited because some men are rapists. Not to the extent that it is. When I was working in downtown Boston, for instance, I couldn't jump on the subway if I left work at midnight - it cost me a lot more to take a taxi out to the burns than a subway token. But if I was raped going home, everyone would have said I shouldn't have been on the subway.

 

Now THIS is a man who gets it. Thank you

 

Six in comparison to ninty four is relatively small. I never said the number of women getting raped was smapl. Please stop twisting what Im saying. We both agree that its unfqir for women to live in a different world than men but woupd ypu say is the solution? I know yyoull suggest counseling but its pretty clear that rapist will ignore that information.

 

You know what I find interesting? Pixie's stance on this issue is quite similar to the stance you & others have on the criminal & mentally ill elements of society, only she's just focused on the area that hits women more than men. Just saying.......

 

its never smooth to dope up a chick to get laid.

women- always watch your drink and be overly careful when you go out with a dude on the first few dates especially on a cold meeting

 

I think all of human culture has a rape culture, to varying degrees. Nearly every human culture has a problem with viewing women and children as property of the male heads of families. Even in matrilineal societies male monopoly of the use of violence and domination have created unequal power relationships. While we are obviously ahead of places like Afghanistan and other countries with more strictly traditional gender and sexual roles, US society still does foster a warrior culture and encourage the use of brute force in certain settings. It is not as widespread as in other places, but it does still exist to a lesser degree.

 

Do you think we have a culture that accepts and promotes rape though? When I see culture I think of something thats widely accepted like guns. There is a gun culture there is a Christian culture there is a sports culture there is a fast food culture. Tjese are things that the majority agrees with and/or supports. See the difference

 

I think it's a matter of degrees. I see the distinction you're making and think it's very valid. So, no, I don't think US culture glorifies rape per se, but it does glorify male dominance, says the role of a man is to lead, exhort women to submissiveness in the face of male aggression (not rape or violence, but assertiveness) and treat women's emancipation as some sort of aberration.

 

I think the distinction is important when engaging inthese types of conversation otherwise discourse threatens to destroy any chance of mutual understanding. I get that there is a rape problem, there is no denying that but male dominance however barbaric and outdated doesnt equate to being accepting of rape. I guess my major disconnect is bridging the idea that people, men in particular, largely accept that women being raped is ok.

 

I don't think that rape is accepted as "OK" in this country at all. But you see it in news reports, TV shows, etc where the woman's sexual history and what she was wearing, and how much alcohol she had, and (well you get the idea) is part of the judicial process for rape trials. The WOMAN is more on trial than the man she accused.

So maybe that's more of how people are thinking about the rape "culture" in America? I don't know.

But a woman who accuses a man of rape has her reputation dragged through the mud. Which is another reason most women don't report rapes.

And don't get me started on the a-hole women who cry wolf. They are essentially ruining the judicial process for the women who truly were raped and want to see their attacker(s) get prosecuted.

 

I guess I watch too much Law and Order SVU. It makes you believe EVERYONE is on the womans side

 

I get what you're saying as well. It is by no means a parallel with the way rape is used and accepted as a pyschological weapon in certain conflict areas of the globe. But rape flows from the same pathology as, and is the most extreme expression of, male dominance (as well as the use of aggressive force by the entire species) , namely the male use of violence to exert control, dominance, etc. I don't want to equate male dominance with rape, but point out their common origins. I don't think anyone is sanctioning the act of rape itself, just supportive of the culture that gives rise to it.

 

Exactly.

 

So what would your solution be fam?

 

Truth.

You know, I have experienced rape more than once. I have mentioned them a few times on here, but I'll condense it quickly for you for reference purposes.
1. A friend of a good friend who filled me with alcohol at 16 at a party...FULL OF MY FRIENDS, mind you... he led me off into the woods and raped me. It was pretty violent. I was ashamed. My best friend said 'You were drinking, what did you think would happen?'... Oh, I don't know. I assumed that because I with good friends and one of them brought a friend HE trusted, that we were all in good company.

2. At 19, a friend at college, someone I worked with in the dining hall, and someone I had a mild interest in... came to my room on a Friday night- my roommate was out, and he lived upstairs, so his presence wasn't a surprise - he raped me on the floor in my room. Friday night.. no one was around to hear me scream, not that I could with his hand over my mouth and another around my throat. I pressed charges. I was asked what clothes I was wearing and why I'd let him into my room to begin with (drawstring sweat pants and a t shirt and slippers...I was in my room... and he was a 'friend' that was often in my room watching movies. WTF?). It was a big part of the trial.

3. At 20, a guy I grew up with and who was my dear friend for about 7 years, came back from Marine basic training. The guy who used to ask permission to hug threw me on the bed after a gathering at his house and raped me. I had offered to stay and help him clean up- pretty customary between us- and he took it as an opportunity to 'do something he'd always wanted to do.' He believed I owed it to him after years of unrequited love... Right. After my last experience, I did NOT press charges. I did tell my parents. Their response? 'Why were you alone with him after the party? You know how difficult basic training can be... ' WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in china?!

4. Between 22-24. Raped repeatedly by my abusive Ex. His way or the highway. No point in pressing charges there. But, our relationship didn't start out like that, keep in mind. I was in love with this person. It wasn't until later on that he started that practice... 'to keep me in line' and to 'make sure I was still his.' Yeah, cause raping me is TOTALLY going to make sure that I am loyal. Right.

Now, does anyone else want to say anything about there not being a rape culture? The fact that someone asked me what I was wearing, why I was with someone who I considered a friend, etc. were all evidence of it. The fact that it's extremely difficult to even prosecute many of these cases. It's horrible if you're a woman. They bring out every ex boyfriend you might have had to try to paint you as a whore to discredit the fact that you might have been raped. It's a completely separate violation. It's a violation that almost no other crime victim experiences.

And my favorite? My mom saying 'Well, you've been raped so many times- it must be something you're doing wrong. What are you doing wrong to make these guys rape you?'...Are. you. serious?! People have some giant balls. How about 'People shouldn't rape other people. EVER.'?

Rape culture refers more to the culturally accepted practice of victim blaming more than anything else. The dragging of a victim through the mud to prove her violation. You don't see the same level of harassment when someone reports a burglary. You also don't see the same backlog and loss of evidence as you do with rape kits. Those indicate that they are not a priority. They aren't seen as important as other evidence in other cases, so if they get lost...eh!

Right. It's even sad that we needed to have an academic term coined to describe this phenomenon.

But see, that is the very evidence of rape culture at work. You might not consciously think ' I could be raped', but society has taught you that you must live in fear. You must. It's YOU who must be vigilant and careful. You who must prevent your own victimization whether it be rape or mugging or murder. Rather than teach our entire culture that rape is NOT ok by punishing people appropriately, we force women into feeling like if they are raped, it's because they didn't do enough to protect themselves. There's not nearly enough blame on the rapist. Just the woman.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't try to keep themselves safe, but unlike other crimes, it is always the women who are profiled...what were they wearing? What do they look like? Are they pretty enough to be raped? Who would rape an ugly woman? Was her skirt too short? Jeans too tight? Heels too high? Lipstick too red? Too much perfume? Shirt cut too low? Has she had a lot of boyfriends? Not enough boyfriends, so she doesn't know what a real sexual encounter is like? Pay attention next time to the way sexual assaults and rape are reported. It's often astounding. A-stounding.

Always the brilliant man, Ra.

Yes. No one is comparing US rape culture to the kinds of cultures where women are truly still property, but you raise a good point. The USA is still a patriarchal society.

This is it. Continuing to blame women for their rape, to attack them at their trials, and to force them to be masters of their own safety, only to blame them when/if they fail (because at some point, someone will) is part of the cultural failure. It's part of what makes up rape culture.

I want to point out that just because someone doesn't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I could swear up and down that racism doesn't exist because *I* don't see it. Does that make it any less real to the people who do?

 

No one has said it doesn't exist that would be ridiculous, but its not accepted in the way we accept other things we say has a culture around it. Like I said maybe its a discourse problem because when you and Trixie say that we should educated the society that rape is wrong you have individuals like myself that think "wait a minute we as a society have always been taught rape is wrong, what are they talking about"
I'm sorry you experienced all that you did and that so many people failed you. It was wrong on their part and I guess that it shapes the way you view rape but rape in our culture isn't accepted by the masses. I willing to concede maybe my views are skewed by where I live in the country because here in the greater metropolitan area an accusation is enough to ruin careers so I can't imagine a scenario where people would shrug it off and blame it on the woman unless the perp was a sports star.
And here's something to consider, I completely agree that women shouldn't have to be the masters of their own safety, just like children or anybody for that matter but we live in a shitty cold and unsafe world. Its just basic fact, no amount of condemning it or wishing it away will make it stop. Personally I don't think its cultural as much as its a wiring problem because even the most enlightened and seemingly intelligent amongst are capable of horrific acts. Look at your average spree killer for example, usually incredibly intelligent and "harmless". They no doubt learned murder was wrong especially mowing down dozens of innocent people, but none the less ignored that lesson and did what they wanted to do.
I won't pretend that I know or understand the fear that comes with being a woman, but I do have to say the picture you and Trix paint is incredibly bleak. If I were I woman I would be on edge at all times since you can not trust anyone ever not even for a second. Everyone from your spouse to your best friend's brother is a potential threat. How do you not just go completely insane from worry because even if we "taught" men that rape was wrong there would be those who just ignore the lesson and do as they please.
How do you coup, how do you date, how do you interact with anyone without always looking over your shoulder? I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be insensitive I am really curious.

 

Thats a stance you have disagreed with, so does that mean you disagree with Pixie? Just saying........