Fort Hood Texas Shooting

Appreciate that. Fair enough, I'll start off. Let me firstly correct your point above - if a person has killed nobody, he cannot be termed a murderer, whatever his occupation. No reasonable person could disagree.

Now, we are conditioned by the media to hold the people charged with our defence in high esteem. Most depictions romanticise the young lads who turn up to the recruiting stations. Newspaper articles descriptions of them conjure up images of quietly-spoken, square-jawed, clean-shaven, clean-living young gallants who help little old ladies cross the road, insist on calling their fathers "Sir", starch and iron their shirts every week with clockwork regularity, standing up from the bar, fists at the ready, to defend a lady's honour in a bar from some uncouth drunk.

Images of boys who are model citizens of the country that brought them into this world, and staunch, well-versed advocates of the system that governs it, boys who go to bed dreaming of serving their country, hoping to have the chance to preserve that system, and when awake, dropping words into their most casual, daily conversations like, "Honour", "Loyalty", "Truth" and "Discipline".

I imagine you, like most intelligent people, realise this 'brand-perception', if you will allow the Marketing term, is utter, unadulterated garbage. I've always been a free-thinker, on this and several other areas. I have encountered a lot of military since the mid 80's, and they have all -without exception - struck me as screwy. No, that's not a scientific description, but I don't mean it to be. It's a gut feeling, explained by the fact that it takes a minority mentality to VOLUNTEER to join an organisation whose objective is to murder - which brings us to your next point.

A military offensive is, by it's very nature, evil. As is the voluntary agreement to join an organisation structured to kill humans, without a clause in that agreement stating that you may not obey any order, action or overall war you deem immoral, (ie dropping bombs on likely terrorists in areas heavily populated with civilians), that every recruit, however non-combative his role, enters.

I'll grant you that. Speaking of house training, I have a couple of Dobermann's, but only for security. I feed them and house them, much as my taxes do likewise with Her Majesty's forces, but they live outside, and doNOT eat at my table. When my nieces and nephews visit, I keep them locked away with extreme discipline; I actually am rather fond of them, but I'm a stern master; they never get the chance to bite one of their hands off. The analogy is that I DO recognise the need for the military; but I still resent their existence. Being a necessary evil does not reduce the depth of the evil, nor does it make it any more comfortable to be around.

Therein lies my disgust for them. Their unquestioningness. The reverse is also true for the Refuseniks of Israel. At the absolute bedrock, the whole pretence of wanting job-training, or feeling a pervading sense of duty to ones country, is a convenient show. Ultimately, they do it for a certain bloodthirstiness, and choose to disregard whether they themselves agree or disagree with their country's policy and actions, and go ahead ready to KILL - whether by knife, bullet, or button.

I'm glad you asked. Any volunteer military. I have the UTMOST respect for the Israeli 'Refuseniks'. I would also happily buy a drink for any soldier, even a US Marine, who changed his mind and refused to serve in offensive action, such as Iraq, so long as he had not already killed.

Me too. I thank the brave conscripted men who plunged into that black night on June 6th, many of whom did not come back. Hitler, unlike Saddam, had invaded a dozen nations, his armies had systematically slaughtered MILLIONS of foreign civilians before the allies landed. He had proven his offensive enemy status in spades. But you are incorrect that I would be seeing a Swastika; had Sealion gone ahead and succeeded, my parents would never have been allowed into Britain. In an even more nightmarish scenario, Hitler, had he reached India and conquered it (God forbid) would have slaughtered my ancestors as he had the Jews.

Who defeated Hitler, yes. Saddam, no, for reasons given. A fact too - though no more or less sad - is that volunteer military are getting killed in Afghanistan. And when I think of heroes, I don't first think of the Allies in WW2. I think of those HEROES who will find a cure for Cancer, or who are Firefighters, or who build the first colony in orbit. As for talking about the dead in celebratory fashion, I would ask you to remind many of your countrymen not to "Yeeehawww!!" with quite such delight when the news of a Allied bomb hitting what is often soothingly referred to by warmongering news outlets as a "High Activity Area".

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You are by no stretch the first person of your beliefs I've discussed this with; I have debated at least half a dozen times, online, serving members of the US military itself, and in some cases to my astonishment, notably those who have seen (but not admitted to causing) death in Iraq, they have agreed with me! They say they have been disgusted by the actions of a Commander in Chief who was as bloodthirsty and reckless as some of their fellow soldiers. The greatest injustice a leader can do to those commissioned to prosecute a war is to send them into an unjust one.

No, like I said you have not pissed me off. You wouldn't piss me off if you completely disregarded everything I've just written. I'm still alive; I have no right to be pissed off, when the life that was breathed into me is still here, whereas thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead at the hands of those uniformed, uninformed, misinformed filth.

 

Holy smokes you are a loquacious fellow. And here I thought I was the only one who couldn’t reply to anything in 10 words or less.

I agree that the portrayal of the military in enlistment marketing materials isn’t entirely accurate. But then not everyone who wears Levis is going to have a half naked man or woman hanging off of them… not everyone who drinks Budweiser has a pond full of singing frogs… and not everyone who wears AXE is going to be accosted by every female in a 20 block radius. It’s advertising, they are creating/enforcing an image that sells, which I believe is the point of marketing and brand recognition. I agree it’s ludicrous that people buy into that rubbish, but clearly it works or they’d try a different tactic to get you to buy, or buy into, whatever it is they’re selling.

I further understand what you are saying, and I can clearly see that you have a rather massive distaste for people who enlist in the military. But then Helen Keller could’ve picked up on that vibe in 30 seconds or less. That is simply a view I do not, and will not share. Many members of my family have voluntarily served their respective countries, and I’m proud of them for doing so. It’s unfortunate that war is necessary at times, and that death in war is inevitable, but the alternative simply isn’t going to be an option. You cannot have people roaming about doing whatever they please, because what a lot of them would do sure wouldn’t please most of us. So until everyone reaches a level of self-actualization, someone has to keep the peace and ensure that people’s rights don’t get trampled into non-existence.

In the debate over the murdering war mongering military, we have completely gotten away from the original purpose of this post. The victims at Ft. Hood didn’t lose their lives during an incursion on foreign soil, they died at home at the hands of someone who should have been trusted to stand beside them and protect them. I feel nothing but grief and sorrow for the victims, and the families of those who died. As for Nadil Hasan, I’m a big believer in you reap what you sow. Call it what you want, karma, payback, justice… it will find you. Maybe not today, maybe not next month or next year, but at some point it always catches up to you. I think Hell’s kinda like Motel 6, they take reservations and they leave the light on for you.

 

I had a feeling after the fact I should have asked whether you had family in the military. Most people with volunteer familly either abreact or agree vehemently with me - but either way, they do so rather too quickly, and rather too unthinkingly. But YOU seem to have taken the middle ground, so a degree of kudos for that.

I really don't like the idea of bombing people who don't do what "pleases" us - I suspect you didn't mean to phrase it such, but it's a rather authoritarian thought at face value.

On the other hand, "self-actualisation"..."Karma". Buddhist??

 

Jaybee the military isn't all about killing people. My boyfriend is a Medic and is there to serve people, he was deployed in Iraq and never once had to use his gun.

 

I hear you, but if here were a Medic back home, he wouldn't be carrying a gun. I don't mean to scare you sweets, but I'm afraid your boyfriend too is subject to the chain of command, and their orders MIGHT - in an operationally crucial situation, and depending on the judgement of the highest ranking soldier in situ - involve him getting into a firefight. It hardly happened in the first war over there, but it's a topsy turvy place over there now.

But you said he never had to use his sidearm. Let's just hope he never does.

 

Jaybee

being a person who lives in the Western World and consuming things that where produced in the 3 world makes u being a murder tooooo.
The lifestyle of our own living is already causing a lot of suffering world wide.

Are u sure that u never buy products produced by children? Are u sure that u by stuff where the chemicals used for production don´t hurt the poor?
Are u sure that ur old computer will not be trashed in africa where it is causing many trouble with nature and human??

It is so easy to say that military people are murders... but when u look close, then u see, that alrady buying diapers for ur little child, is causing destruction somewhere else in the world.

U come from India.. there u know what is going on!!!!! The poorest of the poor cannot defend them self from the harm the big companies are doing because of our life style!!!!!

 

I completely understand your logic and we know this. Of course he would use his weapon if necessary. Kill or be killed. I know it's dangerous over there, he just returned 4 days ago from a year long tour.

 

Im glad you made it back. You are one of the hottest soldiers I have ever seen.

 

I think you misunderstood me. My boyfriend was the one in Iraq, not myself. I'm a civilian, not a soldier.

 

Well said.

 

I showed my oldest brother who is a retired Lt. Colonel from the United States Air Force this thread and he went ballistic. I asked him what he thought of this, he merely said "I'm proud that I served to protect the rights of the ignorant to speak and think as they do because if they were anywhere else in this world that right would be something they wold pray for, someday when they or this nation have to fight for it's life only then will they understand". Amen my brother.

 

"would pray for"

 

A retired Lt. Colonel going "ballistic" over a thread on the internet?

 

You better believe it. Like I said further back, I've had discussions with former and current military, one of them (on a Boxing forum) was ex-usmc no less, AND with the full 20yrs service behind him, on the full pension, plenty of time on his hands, and he'd discharged 5 yrs back, so he had to have been mid 40's minimum.

The dude went off into a 4-letters per word max, 3 Page-Downs to the end, stream-of-consciousness rant that made Ted Bundy seem sane. Started talking about all sorts of shit like carving up his little girl because he suspected his wife had cheated. Moderator closed down his account, and the whisper went round that the Police got involved.

I hope they did, but I just wish I'd never set him off.

 

My Farther served 15 years in the Royal Marines. He fought in the Faulklands and N.Ireland.

He now runs a very successful Investment Company, lives a normal life and is indeed very level headed - he is not an animal or a murderer and I doubt he would get riled by the comments on here to be honest ..

He's still my hero, regardless of what some people may babble on about on an internet forum.

 

Ah yes, the Falklands, a war in which the number of suicides, in the 27 years since those boys who volunteered and fought in the British forces, is higher than their total killed during the conflict.

 

Yes that's the one... (thank you for the spell check ) however I am proud of my Daddy, he has been there, served his country and is a very successful and stable character.

You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush

 

I'm not, I'm aware that the Officer corps has a much lower failure rate in civvy street than the grunts. I have (very briefly, and under protest) had an ex-military guy from S.Africa work under me, he was a Project Manager a few jobs back. Only had to attend one meeting with him, we had him on secondment from another team, just had to read a couple of his reports, and thankfully that was it.

 

Give the shooter the death penalty. I spent most of my childhood near and inside US military bases as a military brat, and wouldn't think this senseless act could happen inside a base, within the US by a US soldier. Hearing about him being a psychologist is the part that gets me. He was supposed to help those who need support, not the other way around. I hope the harshest sentence gets handed to him, since this is not the right way to disapprove of the ongoing war.

 

I did not suggest anyone should bomb anyone else. I merely indicated that society requires rules, because though many people have morals and ethics that govern their actions, there are people who do not. Those are the people who believe themselves entitled to do as they please, and acquire what they please, at the expense of anyone who gets in their way. They are bullies, who capitalize on whatever they view as a weakness; gender, religion, race, lack of strength, physical size, social status, poverty, etc. Since they specifically target people whose perceived weaknesses they are in a good position to exploit, the people they prey upon are often ill-equipped to defend themselves. I merely believe it appropriate that someone step in for those people, and in certain instances the military fills that role.

As for Buddhism, if you're suggesting I might be Buddhist, I'm not. I'm a Christian. My father was an Agnostic with existentialistic views, my mother a Christian, and my step-father a Catholic, so I grew up with exposure to a variety of religious viewpoints. Self-actualization was a reference to the hierarchy of needs proposed by Abraham Maslow. It's a well-known psychological theory used to explain human motivation, in fact I recall seeing it in another thread, and I believe Christine posted it, but I cannot recall which thread it was in. I suppose it's possible Maslow was influenced by Buddhism, but given that he was an Orthodox Jew I doubt it.