Did The Current State Of Feminism Kill Chivalry?

Just a conversation I had earlier and I am curious of your thoughts...



Disclaimer: I am asking for your opinions and I know most every subject in here no matter how trivial can be taken too seriously. So, I am not interested in conversing back and forth, I am just curious of everyone's opinion. This is my only post for this thread. For those of you who add input, I appreciate it.

 

I will say this, the rules of interaction between men and women has become so toxic that I hear many men say that they feel that there is a war against them by the feminist culture that has been very subtle in fundamentally changing the country. Wonder why the Islamic cultures fear us for what we want them to emulate us. Whether this is right or wrong, the fact that men even in professional settings refuse to be alone with a woman even in their offices without having the door to their offices open for all to see. Much is being said that the American male is not what he once was, some believe that the rise of the feminist movement has castrated the American man. Can James Bond get away with smacking a woman on the ass and tell her to scram, it's man talk time with his male counterparts?

 

Sameness/Difference

That certain American generations are greater than others is a problematic notion; I'm not sure the American male was that great to begin with.

--------

Should women receive niceties from men for merely being women? Those who answer yes usually believe in intrinsic difference.

Feminists, like many activists, use more expedient arguments than foundational ones. This question is more a problem for feminist theory which sometimes at its early stages argued for equality based on the intrinsic qualities of women and then from a basic human rights or rational-legal standpoint--with many of these types still believing in intrinsic difference, mother gaia, the sacred feminine and all that. One can hold both views, but to what point does this difference play out in the real world is the question. People who believe in race also have to ask themselves the same question.

 

Just say now " woman, I aint opening the doh...your hands broke"

 

My answer to the question is: perhaps. Women have shown men that they don't need them and men have gotten lazy. But which came first: the chicken or the egg?

I am one woman who would like to see chivalry revived. While I am perfectly capable of opening doors myself and doing everything else I need to survive, and I don't become "helpless" the minute a man enters the picture, I do appreciate a man with manners who wants to be a gentleman and treat me like a lady. I like having doors opened for me, I like it when a man stands up when I approach the dinner table in public, I like it when a man pays for my dinner (esp on the first date) and doesn't expect me to go dutch, I like it when a man refrains from profanity or crude remarks when I'm present (in social situations). It's not that I'm too delicate or helpless or I think I'm all that. I just feel respected and appreciated when treated that way. And I like that. Many women would disagree, but to each her own.

Men, please don't buy into the "chivalry is dead" malarkey. There are women out there who appreciate it. I, for one, won't be wrestling a man for a door handle any time soon. :smt061

 

It's possible - for some men.

 

I disagree with the 'women have shown men that they don't need them and men have gotten lazy' part. I think the reason men have gotten lazy is exactly what you hit on later in your post. Women have consistently shown men that we don't have to open doors or show manners toward women in order to get the girl. Swag and game are much better 'bait' than manners and respect. (This is where every woman in America disagrees, despite the fact that they can identify completely.)

 

I had a conversation with a coworker about her being single and her response was that nice guys just don't do it for her. She said she needs a challenge, things aren't as special to her if she doesn't have to earn it.

My response was anyone over the age of 25 who still wants a bad boy over a nice man is entitled to all the misery that comes with that. Games are for children and I personally choose to my time with adults but in regards to chivalry if it is dead it needs to remain so. I don't like the idea that I'm required to do certain things to gain a woman's affection. Whether we go dutch or not shouldn't be as important as how we connect or how good a time we had. If whether or not I paid or whether or not I hold the door open(which is good manners but shouldn't be an obligation because then the gesture is insincere) is the foundation for whether or not we connect then we're setting ourselves up for a bad future.
Entering into a relationship with set obligations and expectations is the basis for a downfall unless you're ok with ascribed male and female roles through out the entire relationship.

Under the rules of chivalry I have always wondered what are women required to do since we already know the rules in place for men.

 

Swag and game may be good "bait" but manners and respect will keep us coming back for more. Swag and game only go so far. Same with a woman who is only beautiful on the outside. How long would she last in your life if you were looking for something enduring? If you are a real man, you will want a woman who is every bit as beautiful on the inside (if not more so) as the outside.

I am tickled when ANY man, young or old shows me the simple courtesy of opening a door for me or stepping back to allow me to enter an elevator ahead of him. Especially a teenager - that tells me chivalry is still breathing.

I saw something the other night that I have only experienced with one man (a southern man) and that is, when the couple was walking down the sidewalk, the man positioned himself so that he was always on the outside, closest to the street. I was puzzled by that when I experienced that with the guy I was with, until I realized what he was doing and why. And I loved it.

 

in regards to the bolded part, i've noticed on the forum that there is a desire from some members where they do want a defined male and female role in a relationship. i for one, once in a relationship fall into the "role" of housekeeper, cook, mother, nurse and the rest and to be honest, i think a man expects that from the woman they are in a relationship with.

and btw, my son knows the saying "ladies before gentlemen" and abides by it. i think a little old school is a nice touch in today's cynical world.

 

Easy to say when you're not the one having expectations placed on them. I'm not even talking about a relationship I'm talking about courting. From the very beginning a man is expected to treat you a certain way where as there are no expectations placed on you and if there are its no well recieved.

 

You expect a woman to sleep with you within 2-3 months in order to gain your affection or keep your interest. But a woman isn't allowed to expect good manners? *smh*

 

I don't buy that. Women enjoy and desire sex just as much as men. I'd be willing to wager that, more often than not, a woman sleeps with a man out of desire and not some sense of duty or obligation.

I agree with Dark Knight, when it comes to courting it is the mans responsibility to impress the woman. Feminism has conveniently failed to even the playing field in this area. Mind you, I do not have an issue with taking a woman out and showing her a good time. I just think that, while we're trying to bend genders we should do so across the board and stop being so selective about it.

 

Again what is expected of you if I'm expected to show good manners. What am I allowed expect from you?
Btw having sex is a mutually beneficial act. At least if its good sex anyway.
I understand why a lot of you like chivalry but you have to understand what position it puts you in. You can't expect to be treated like a "lady" in one situation and then demand to be my equal in another.

 

Damn I'm all out of rep

 

My comment was directed at DK specifically. He doesn't want to be bound by expectations but has his own.

As for what will you receive in return for chivalry? Appreciation, respect, support and understanding, sensitivity, good manners, devotion, loyalty, intimacy...shall I continue?

 

All of those go both ways.

 

You're right - but you're far more likely to get them from me if I'm respected and treated like a lady. Jus sayin.

 

If these gender based niceties were reciprocal; a women's treatment towards men, like the domesticity Tarshi mentioned, was directly tied to female oppression according to the Women's Movement. That you should be accorded anything from a woman for simply being a man was killed by feminism. Is it likely they also killed the inverse? Quite likely.

 

All of those things are what I might want over time not when we first start dating lol. I think you want things to move very quickly from the first date.