Bob Jones University

Yes... article on point from last week's NYTimes:

The New York Times
November 26, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
A French Connection

By KENNETH C. DAVIS
TO commemorate the arrival of the first pilgrims to America’s shores, a June date would be far more appropriate, accompanied perhaps by coq au vin and a nice Bordeaux. After all, the first European arrivals seeking religious freedom in the “New World” were French. And they beat their English counterparts by 50 years. That French settlers bested the Mayflower Pilgrims may surprise Americans raised on our foundational myth, but the record is clear.

Long before the Pilgrims sailed in 1620, another group of dissident Christians sought a haven in which to worship freely. These French Calvinists, or Huguenots, hoped to escape the sectarian fighting between Catholics and Protestants that had bloodied France since 1560.

Landing in balmy Florida in June of 1564, at what a French explorer had earlier named the River of May (now the St. Johns River near Jacksonville), the French émigrés promptly held a service of “thanksgiving.” Carrying the seeds of a new colony, they also brought cannons to fortify the small, wooden enclosure they named Fort Caroline, in honor of their king, Charles IX.

In short order, these French pilgrims built houses, a mill and bakery, and apparently even managed to press some grapes into a few casks of wine. At first, relationships with the local Timucuans were friendly, and some of the French settlers took native wives and soon acquired the habit of smoking a certain local “herb.” Food, wine, women — and tobacco by the sea, no less. A veritable Gallic paradise.

Except, that is, to the Spanish, who had other visions for the New World. In 1565, King Philip II of Spain issued orders to “hang and burn the Lutherans” (then a Spanish catchall term for Protestants) and dispatched Adm. Pedro Menéndez to wipe out these French heretics who had taken up residence on land claimed by the Spanish — and who also had an annoying habit of attacking Spanish treasure ships as they sailed by.

Leading this holy war with a crusader’s fervor, Menéndez established St. Augustine and ordered what local boosters claim is the first parish Mass celebrated in the future United States. Then he engineered a murderous assault on Fort Caroline, in which most of the French settlers were massacred. Menéndez had many of the survivors strung up under a sign that read, “I do this not as to Frenchmen but as to heretics.” A few weeks later, he ordered the execution of more than 300 French shipwreck survivors at a site just south of St. Augustine, now marked by an inconspicuous national monument called Fort Matanzas, from the Spanish word for “slaughters.”

With this, America’s first pilgrims disappeared from the pages of history. Casualties of Europe’s murderous religious wars, they fell victim to Anglophile historians who erased their existence as readily as they demoted the Spanish settlement of St. Augustine to second-class status behind the later English colonies in Jamestown and Plymouth.

But the truth cannot be so easily buried. Although overlooked, a brutal first chapter had been written in the most untidy history of a “Christian nation.” And the sectarian violence and hatred that ended with the deaths of a few hundred Huguenots in 1565 would be replayed often in early America, the supposed haven for religious dissent, which in fact tolerated next to none.

Starting with those massacred French pilgrims, the saga of the nation’s birth and growth is often a bloodstained one, filled with religious animosities. In Boston, for instance, the Puritan fathers banned Catholic priests and executed several Quakers between 1659 and 1661. Cotton Mather, the famed Puritan cleric, led the war cries against New England’s Abenaki “savages” who had learned their prayers from the French Jesuits. The colony of Georgia was established in 1732 as a buffer between the Protestant English colonies and the Spanish missions of Florida; its original charter banned Catholics. The bitter rivalry between Catholic France and Protestant England carried on for most of a century, giving rise to anti-Catholic laws, while a mistrust of Canada’s French Catholics helped fire many patriots’ passion for independence. As late as 1844, Philadelphia’s anti-Catholic “Bible Riots” took the lives of more than a dozen people.

The list goes on. Our history is littered with bleak tableaus that show what happens when righteous certitude is mixed with fearful ignorance. Which is why this Thanksgiving, as we express gratitude for America’s bounty and promise, we would do well to reflect on all our histories, including a forgotten French one that began on Florida’s shores so many years ago.

Kenneth C. Davis is the author of “America’s Hidden History: Untold Tales of the First Pilgrims, Fighting Women and Forgotten Founders Who Shaped a Nation.”

 

So if there was no religion there would be no racism? You gotta be joking.
Have you heard the stories of russians beating blacks and brown people? there are alot of atheist there. No atheist have every committed murders?
Communist Russia, Communist China Cuba etc.

 

Many of them base their racism on religion... either Orthodox Christianity or Slavic paganism. Degenerate morons and the shame of the nation.

 

It isnt that I think that racism would cease to exist. I'm saying that one reason to be racist and discriminate against others would be eliminated. However it is hard to deal with "the other reasons that racists use to be racist", when religion has such a strong hold on the average person's ability to be reasoned with and have logical understanding.

I mean, come on, how can someone really believe that God "touched a virgin" and as a result, she gave birth to "his son"? (Christianity). How can a reasonable person believe that if you blow up a bunch of Jews that Allah will have 75 virgins waiting for you in heaven? (Islam)? And finally, how can a group of people really treat others with equality when they believe that "they are God's chosen people" (The Jews)?

Those are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the "whacked" beliefs that all 3 of the world's major religions have. I could post all night long, detailing how much "faith" one would have to have to believe in all the "nonsense" that these religions preach.

Prayer. Now that's a good one. Praying to some shit that dont exist. Keep wasting your fucking time, morons, lol. Keep believing that there is some higher power out there, taking the time to listen to "prayer requests", lol. I mean, how many people are on the Earth? Over 6 billion, the vast majority of who actually believe that prayer works. God must be a hell of a motherfucker to be able to listen and answer prayer requests. How the hell does he have time to do anything else?

 

Well you asked a question, so please refer to my posts on the origin of evil. If God could create man from mud, which He also created, why wouldn't He be able to create a New and Pure sperm and to place it inside a virgin. (If you really believed in evolution you might have thought Mary was some sort of mutant, but that would take more faith than I have.)

It takes a lot more faith IMO to believe, that from absolutely nothing a big bang happened, and then everything started as mud and in the mud there formed a single living cell, and this little single cell developed into a fish which grew wings and then somehow became an ape, and Walla -Here we are, all headed to absolutely nowhere with absolutely no purpose in life.

Uh... God made time and stands outside of it.. It's you and I that are limited to time. I'm going to pray for you that He will show you He does answer prayer....I'm going to pray that the goodness of God be on you.

 

Now that's truth right there.

 

God answers prayers? What "criteria" does "God" use to answer prayers? Trillions of prayers by "God's children" have been said since humans had "enough sense" to figure out the "concept" of prayer. Now why does God answer some prayers and not others? Seemingly "true Christians" have bad things that happen to them. I'd like to have some understand as to "how prayer works". Why does prayer work for some, but not others? To me it would seem like if prayer really worked, then everyone would believe and pray.

However I have a sneaky feeling that you'll say "well, it's up to God to decide which prayer he wants to answer". If that is correct, then why fucking pray to begin with? If God already has his mind made up about how things are going to progress, then why pray? Or maybe you feel that God is like a judge who is hearing closing arguments before "ruling on a motion", lol.

Please, help me out with this, because when I use logic, I cant understand how prayer is supposed to work.

 

Well I'm not going to say "it's up to God" because that is a cop out. So follow along. (I'm quoting this from my Pastor who said it best.) But before you think I take everything he says as truth, I need to say, I carefully study the Bible and I do my own research. You asked, so here goes.

"The dominion of Man is a Bible truth, that most Christians have not understood. Without an understanding of this central truth the whole world around us makes not sense. In fact, most Christians believe that God is somehow responsible for everything that happens (good or bad). This is not what the Bible teaches. Man is the responsible party and what happens around us is the result of the dominion of God placed in our hands. Sin, sickness, murder, strife, etc. all entered the world through man and it continues to occur in our society as a result of this spiritual law.

Consequently, because of this truth God had to redeem man by adhering to His original command given in Genesis 1:26. That's the reason that the Lord Jesus had to be born of a woman. He came as the second Adam (man) The good news for Christians is that through Jesus we are delivered from the dominion of darkness and transformed into the kingdom of the Son of God's love (Col. 1:13).

Just as sin came through Adam so now life, health and peace come through Jesus Christ. "

So now with this authority, we must pray according to God's will, which we must discern as Scripture lays it out. (Most people know the "Lords Prayer")

So we pray in faith to God in Jesus name the will of God. We must "believe, we receive when we pray" Mark 11:24, and then stand firm in our faith while we wait for that manifestation.

Now before you say what is in Bold above is a cop out stay with me a minute more. I explained in the other thread some things about the origin of evil also and you may want to read it too. But here I just want to say: Evil is not of God ("God is light and in Him is NO darkness") ("the whole world is in the sway of the wicked one (Satan)" - so we know that His will is good, He is Love, and "every good gift comes from the Father". So in order to determine His will you must study Scripture which is His letter to mankind (IMO) and you will clearly see His will spelled out.

Example: If you need a job you can find a scripture that says "a righteous man leaves an inheritance to his children's children" so you know God wants you to have a job, you have based it on knowing His will from scripture. So you can then pray and believe He will give you the job you need. Your prayer will be answered.

 

Isn't it a little useless for a Christian and an atheist to argue? It's all been argued before you guys.

 

I'll quote Al Pacino from "The Devil's Advocate"......"God is the classic politician...if something good happens, it was God's will. If something bad happens, it's the devil's (evil's) fault.".

From reading your post TINKERBELL, if your heart is in the right place, along with being in alignment with scripture, then God will answer your prayers. I'm curious, when black people in America were stuck in slavery from the mid 1600's til the Civil War, where was God? What took God so fucking long to answer the prayers of black Americans? Oh right, I know, it is evil's fault that the black man was enslaved. If that is the case, then what "time table" decides when God's will over takes evil?

It seems that from what I understand, you believe that you have to pray...and then leave it in God's hand. However, there are plenty of people who dont pray, yet they have good things that happen to them.

 

Well it's not just prayer, and I don't think you just leave it in God's hands. You have to act also, did you read the part about the "dominion of man". We also have to do things. I think God moves on the hearts of people who can make a difference and they do what He impresses them to do or they don't, then they become responsible in God's eyes "for him who knows to do good and does it not it is sin".

If you study History, you will find that many people did start some things, to get rid of slavery, and were outspoken about slavery, but no one really followed through until the civil war, because sometimes we have to fight wars to right the wrongs in this world. I believe those individuals and others who new it was wrong and did nothing were responsible for the slavery not being stopped.

God still uses people to wright those wrongs. He has bound Himself to the spiritual laws He implemented in Genesis. He will not override the rights He has given to mankind.

As for those who don't pray and yet have good things happen, I must tell you that we all do things every day that are seeds for our future, and we will reap the results of such seeds, good or bad. It is still the dominion of man, not God on this earth. Some of the things we do, have lasting effects on our children and grandchildren up to many generations. These things can be changed but we have to believe, pray, and do.

 

I am not arguing, at least that isn't my intention. Cowboy asked a question I have some expertise on, I just thought I'd answer!

 

Man, "your God" sure takes his sweet ass time, righting a wrong. 200 years? Hell if I was black, there is no way I could be fucking Christian. The bible is very pro slavery, particularly in the Old Testament. I dont care what it says about "treating slaves right". No one likes to be a fucking slave. That's like saying that a rapist was a "kind rapist" because he didnt beat up the woman, that he let her live. Rape is rape. Slavery is slavery.

In the Old Testament, "God" is a combination of Bobby Knight and Suge Knight, lol.

 

I'm sorry you are still blaming God, it was people who let it go on for 200 years, and yes many of those people were Christians, they were not IMO doing His will which He had impressed upon them. I can't apologize for them. I can only be responsible for me.

But that's cool, you have a right to believe whatever you want. I'll fight for your right to do so.

 

you misunderstand

This is one of those things that non-Christians (and a lot of Christians) easily overlook. This earth was never meant to be God's perfect creation. The pure and perfect reckoning for sin comes in the next life. God never promised us a rose garden. As a matter of fact, He specifically told us that there would be hardships in this life.

The injustices that you mention only serve to prove that things are screwed up and in need of saving.

And BTW, the Bible certainly isn't pro-slavery, at least not in the Western sense of the word. Slavery in the Bible is a much more involved topic than I can address here; it'd require its own thread. But if anyone has Christianity questions, I'm glad to answer them as best I can.

 

Hmm...not exactly how the response to this thread unfolded in my mind...but interesting nonetheless...

 

You just confirmed the quote I mentioned "God is the classic politician". According to you, if something good happens, it's God's will. However if something bad happens, then it shows that man is evil and needs God's guidance.

As far as you "justifying the Old Testament's version of slavery", let me put it this way. Saying that slave masters in the Old Testament were better is like saying that a rapist is a "kind and good rapist" because he didnt beat up or kill the woman. Slavery is slavery, rape is rape. No one wants to be a fucking slave, no matter how "good" the conditions are. I dont need a freaking thread to explain that to me.

 

I think we all need to remember that we each are unique and have our own opinions about certain issues. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, instead of getting angry and lashing out. Moving on...