Black People and Jesus

I'm not a religious person but this has always disturbed me most in scriptures and is something that I can agree with Real on.

I understand the concept of "free will" but WHY put a "Tree of Knowledge" there in the first place, giving them a chance to fail? If such is to be believed, then why is it fair for the rest of us to suffer for THEIR mis-deeds??? You mean to tell me that the world went to hell in a hand-basket because two naive individuals did something daddy told them not to do?

So we are all screwed because of the weakness of two people? If that is the case, God sure is "fair"!... I wouldn't be so out there however to blame a God for the actions (or restraining the actions) of mankind though. That would explain "free will".

And yet - even KNOWING what death was, they STILL did it? Satan must be a hell of a persuader to rob them of their immortality?!

 

Just like i said Drow, if the Tree is not in the garden, how could they have a choice? You can't choose between something that isn't there. The Tree was necessary. God doesn't want androids, or people who follow him because they have no choice but to. He wants people to follow him because they love him. That's why the book of Job is so important. Job was a God fearing man, very rich, and very blessed. God was pleased with him. However, Satan came into the presence of God and told God that the only reason Job is obedient to him is because of all of the riches that God has blessed him with. So in order to prove a point, God allowed Satan to strip Job of everything he has, even his family.

Make a long story short, this story has perfect parallels to the story of Genesis, and even the lives we live right now. God is searching for people who truly love him, and the only way to determine the ones who love him from the ones who are "acting" like they do, is by giving them choices. Adam and Eve made the wrong choice. And i have a big problem with people who say Adam and Eve didn't know any better. What gives them a free pass? They were in the actual physical presence of God himself. The people of today aren't given that luxury. We have to live by faith instead. So Adam and Eve, if you ask me, had no more of an excuse to sin against God than people of today do.

And why are you saying "we're all screwed?" Just because Adam and Eve set off a chain of events that led to a LOT of sin in the world, that definitely doesn't mean we're all screwed. Obviously, if you're an atheist, you won't believe it anyway, but God eventually made up for what Adam and Eve did by sacrificing his son Jesus on the cross. That's the whole point of the scriptures. Adam and Eve screw up......Jesus dies on the cross to make up for it.

Yes, exactly! Even knowing what death was, they STILL did it. It's the same for people of today. People who know what death and hell are, they still continue to sin. That's how powerful sin really is. And that's why it was necessary for God to intervene and sacrifice his only son for us.

 

haha

You have to work really hard to maintain this level of belief.

Given there were only two people on Earth during this golden era in human history, you can say that Adam (no last name? "Pac Man" Jones? Smith? Ant?) was at least the smartest male for a time.

 

Bryant-I must applaud you! You have done a great job explaining the viewpoint of a Christian. I sometimes don't have the patience. It's hard to explain our beliefs which consists of fact and faith to people who don't understand the "faith" part of our belief. I do respect others opinions and beliefs different than mine, I just find it exhausting to debate it sometimes!

 

But that comes right back to God having to KNOW what the outcome was going to be... Because he is - God. So was there REALLY a choice? "I'll put this tasty morsel out here and then sick Satan on them just to sweeten the deal". IF THEY DO AS I ASKED, all will be well, if they DON'T, I will curse mankind forever! Sounds like they had a "choice" in the matter to me. You may say that they had a "choice" but it was not without consequences.

But therein lies the problem. How can anyone truly love someone they don't know??? It's pretty hard to tell people to have faith when they have no idea what they should be faithful too?! If God wants us to truly love him, then he NEEDS to make his presence known in a more tangible way other than portends and "faith" and because a book says that it should be so... If God were to make it known that he actually EXIST and that he gives a damn about his creation, then I will be the first one on that train!

 

Thanks ShyandSweet. It is exhausting. But i guess, if God wants to use us to get a word through to somebody out there, then he's free to do just that. :wink: You're absolutely right though. Christianity is faith based, but it's also factual based as well. The two go hand in hand. I have no idea why Atheists believe we would be Christians, if we've had no real interaction with God to begin with. God even said in scriptures that he only truly reveals himself to those who have a heart that would be receptive to him. Maybe that would explain why some of us feel his presence, and others don't.

 

Exactly- they want someone they can see- when we have actually experienced God's presence! They don't seem to understand that part. But we should at least try and explain it just as you did! Great job!

 

Yes, i'm sure that God did know what the outcome was going to be. But if you're doubting that, then you also have to doubt why God would go ahead and create the Earth if he knew what it would turn into in advance. The answer is simple. Even though God knew in advance what Adam and Eve would do, he's not coming away from it empty handed. He's coming away from it with an army of followers (true followers) who truly love him. I can't remember exactly which scripture it was, but it might have been Abraham who asked God if he would spare Sodom and Gomorrah from destruction, if there was only 10 righteous people in a town full of a thousand. God said that he would. But unfortunately, there weren't even 10 righteous people in the entire town, so he destroyed it after all. Make a long story short, even though the world is full of millions/billions of people who choose not to follow God, he is still happy for the few who do choose to follow him. This is why God didn't destroy Adam and Eve and start over. This is why God created the Earth, while even knowing what would take place. He did all this for the few that would be saved, and for the few that would follow him.

And again, mankind is not cursed forever. God gave us a way out of the curse. And that is through the death of Jesus on the cross.

It's a process Drow. In order to have faith, you first need to trust. And once you have that faith, that's when the love starts to come. God spoke about the very thing that you just mentioned. You say that if God made himself more tangible, then more people would believe. His response was, if Moses and his people saw first hand the power of God, and still strayed away and sinned while in the desert, then no amount of tangible proof of God's existence will ever be enough. That's why he requires faith, and trust more than anything.

And sure, God has made his existence known to all of us who believe. Most of us who consider ourselves to be real Christians have had real, personal encounters with him.

 

Right, exactly! Once a person has felt the actual presence of God, there is no more doubting his existence. :wink:

 

God sounds like an egotistical prick if he created a race of fallible beings, who he knew would fuck up, only to see who would show him love in a world where it makes more sense not to believe.


Even I'm not that much of an asshole.

 

satyr,

not that you care....but i pray for you every day. and i mean that sincerely - i'm not being spiteful.

 

This quickly turned into back and forth belief arguments. I would like to hear some answers about the questions RealDre24 asked.

Why do so many blacks follow the Christian faith? Especially when you consider its history towards blacks, there are plenty of African religions that are deeply spiritual. Is it because blacks in the US have become so far gone from their roots?

 

The hardships that blacks have faced for centuries and the relative swiftness with which most of their problems have been either overcome or abated makes most blacks believe that the only explanation for this phenomenon lies in the existence a spiritual manifestation who has in some way supernally blessed them. Few blacks could ever have anticipated that a modest white southernor would be the author of their liberation at the risk of a backlash from southern separatists and at the assurance that democrats would lose the southern vote for at least the next fifty years. Whatever spiritual or cultural traits remained with blacks in the post-segregation years was lost several centuries prior and the only religion which they saught fit to abide by was the one so pontificated and indocrinated by their own oppressors. History has well enlightened us of the ways that cultures and religions spread; through trade (most notably the Silk Road of around 110 B.C.), multilateralism and conquests for complete hegemonic domination such as those embarked on by Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great. Cultures change more rapidly than history progresses so it is no wonder that blacks in America and Europe have virtually severred all spiritual and cultural ties from the nations of their former or rather ancient roots, considering the fact that very few if any black Americans in the course of slavery and segregation in America ever went back to Africa.

 

I wanted to add to this thread, I was raised up in Jersey and we were exposed to islamic studies for a time and went to the occasional church function with grandmother and other relatives at times but we were never steered toward any religious path. My take from what I gather growing up was we were taught to question whatever someone tells you. As far as my perspective from up north we had diversity blacks who was christian, muslim, some jewish, and some who could care less anything about religion. As far as churches go they were lively amening and hollering and that was about it but since I got down to Florida and up north I never heard of the term holiness churches or the use of the term overseer being used. But what really freaked me out going to these black women dominated black churches, especially the holiness and pentecostal was the feeling or catching the holy ghost. Falling to the floor having convulsions, and spitting up with mucous coming out the nose flying places. For the record I am pagan and attending some of these churches ends up being a pain in the ass but have to keep up appearances and play nice just to keep some access to people. Once some of these women namely the older ones hear I am a single father its all over for me and as usual its oh come to my church and all the ramblings. One thing I have noticed is that the churches down here have a stranglehold on the black community down here and the slavery legacy is strong and effective. Basically being in the south blacks feel christianity so deeply because its been whipped into them since slavery.

 

Ditto this. What a long and kind of pointless thread.

I see it like this.
Some people believe, some people do not.
If they don't want to, there will be nothing I can say to change their mind.
It's called FAITH for a reason. It's not called PROOF. And because of that, I can't get out the measuring glass and proove God to exist, but I have faith that he does.

Why do so many black people follow the church? Maybe they believe it too. Perhaps it is that simple?
And, keeping in mind that things like religion, food, language, etc make up a huge part of culture...it's part of the identity.

Just because Christianity and Islam began (just) outside of Africa, does not mean that Africans and African decendants shouldn't follow it. Christianity began in the Middle East - and it's now seen as a "western" religion. The three Abramic religions began in what is now Iraq and has spread across the globe and is now the religions of the majority of the people around the world.

Any argument about African Americans or any non-white person following christianity and not being "true" to their original spirituality is totally stupid.

Sure, most religions have been used to control people, justify unspeakable actions and to do lots of terrible things. But, I argue that it's not the FAITH that is to blame...it's organised religion which is nothing more than humans interpretation of The Word and then which, by definition, is flawed.

But, I think the point of this thread should be that no matter what anyone believes - LIVE AND LET LIVE. If you wanted an intelligent debate, then do that but don't just argue for the sake of it.

 

The problem is that with blacks in America we have had it beaten into us for generations by the whip since slavery. As a northern raised black my rememberance of religion was it wasn't a issue considering we were exposed to blacks of diversity some who were christian, muslim, jewish, khemetic, or whatever but when you go down south you find there is assumption by default that you are christian and you even see the remnants of slavery in the south in the church. We are taught that any other belief is wrong and you will find that whites who are christian tend to be more accepting of other beliefs than blacks who are christian.

There was a episode of Gideon's Crossing where a elderly female patient was very hateful of all the staff except for the main character and in dialogue he was asked if he remembers his scriptures or something to that wording, and it was followed by he should he comes from a church going race. This statements reinforces the ideal that blacks are and should be one belief and that is all. If hollywood can put that in a show that says what the general consensus is of us and our beliefs.

 

Not so. Where I'm from the Christians, which are the vast majority, are the most judgmental, bigoted, racist people I've ever met in my life. And I've had plenty of arguments with white Christians who disregarded completely any other belief.

I've only met a handful of good, honest Christian people in my life. It's why I have such a low view of Christianity in general. Every one that I meet I hope they will fall into the "good" category, but I find that most I meet simply do not.

I'm not a fan of organized religion. I respect other people's beliefs, and I believe everyone has the right to believe how they will, but I don't respect the institution of organized religion in itself. I believe in god, in a way. It's complicated, which is why I always check the "agnostic" box where applicable, atheist when agnostic isn't a choice. I might go to church sometime, maybe, if I get the feeling to, but mostly I'd rather light my candles and pray my own way, because it feels more right than anything else. I always felt like an outsider in church anyway. I figure it's probably due to the fact that children can pick up on a lot of things adults don't realize, and I knew some bad things about the people who went there. I always wondered why god didn't strike them down, or at least out them for the hypocrites they were, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Never judge a faith..especially Christianity by it's adherents. Even the bible preaches against casting stones at others when you live in a glass house....the Bible preaches tolerance and states many times that people are far from perfect..that we are all quite imperfect.


Any Christian that looks down on you...hasn't been reading the scriptures. All they are doing is going to church on Sunday and completely missing the message. The next time someone that is holier than thou comes up to you and criticizes you, just tell them to "Go back and re-read Genesis through Revealations..and come back later"


I'm a Christian but I don't appreciate others that feel the need to castigate our brothers and sisters of different faiths and levels of faith.

 

This is an interesting thread, I do think that we should give everyone the freedom to worship and believe as they will. (So long as that does not interfere with the rights of others.) I do commend the author of this thread for his very interesting questions that he has posed. I find it interesting that atheists always have so many questions about God, and Christianity.

I also commend Bryant for his patient explanation do debunk the argument that God is not a loving God. I would differ on a few points, but mostly I agree with Bryant.

I would add that God did not "damn" the whole world forever, as it was alluded to in one of the posts. This discussion was about God, not Jesus, and the original questions was about Christians. So remember, Jesus was the answer to the original sin, we have overcome through him, and that is why we are Christians. Muslims believe in God, so do the Jews, but only Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the everliving son of God, born of a virgin, who was crucified, and raised again on the third day for our sins.

I do think it's good that Christians get these questions however because we need to be able to stand with Bryant and say, I believe what I believe because after careful consideration, study of God's Word, (and maybe other religions) and personal experience I have come to the conclusion that this is the truth! That's where I stand.

As to why blacks in America "cling" to a religion that oppressed them, WOW, Why do whites? (we were also oppressed by religious nuts during the middle ages) Why do women? (very oppressed by "Christians") Why would anybody? Jesus was not white, he was a Jew, just in case some have forgotten that.

I think it is because we know that those who "oppressed us" did so out of miss-understanding of our Loving God, (using his name in vain). Not because we believe like they apparently did that it was condoned by God. History shows that Christians under persecution, only strengthen their belief in Christ, because that is when they are able to see the real experiences of His faithfulness to them. It makes us stronger. Maybe that is why black people in America tend to have such strong faith.

Scripture says that God is not willing that any should parish, it also says He is no respecter of persons (that means He is not prejudiced) it also says that The whole world is under the sway of the wicked one (that means Satan guys) it also says we who are in Christ have been given ALL authority. We must begin to use that authority, in order to see evil defeated. It's our job folks, not Gods. He will keep his promise even to Satan. Because He is a faithful God, if He gave us the authority, then He isn't taking it back. The world is what we allow it to be.

So we are learning to overcome evil, if the little girl is molested, God didn't cause it, Satan did, this is his realm. Someone who had the authority didn't prevent it.

If you have been given authority, then you have the right, and the responsibility to use it, and to make your own decisions. That's why in America we let people vote. When someone is elected we have to live by those policies, because we allowed it. God allows us to make wrong decisions also. If you were forced to agree/act with him on all points your love for him wouldn't mean squat. Again - the freedom of choice.

Sorry if this upsets anyone, just speaking my mind!

 

i"m not fan of organized religion either but I think you have to look at the person indiviidually also and the area. People who are more educated and experience tend to hold religion more open but people who are least educated and experienced tend to be more closed. Of course you will always have your exception to the rule but for the most part this tends to be the case. Whites have had acess historically to their culture and past than blacks. hencforth being able to indentify where in europe their family comes from, while we still stick to african american and africa is continent.