Black People and Jesus

Glad i could entertain you. I'm not gonna go back and forth with you, trying to convince you that God is real, or that there's a purpose for everything (even the suffering of small, innocent children). I don't need to. I have a perspective that i see the world in, and you have yours. It's pointless to debate about it. After all, that's what makes you an atheist, and that's what makes me a believer. The funniest thing about it all though, is the fact that the simplest answer, usually tends to be the most logical one. You gave a whole long-winded explanation for why what i said was silly, but despite everything that you wrote, does that really answer any questions? Does that really give you a greater insight into the original questions that you posed? I highly doubt it. And if you're "all-knowing" and already know the answers to your own questions, why ask anybody in the first place? Do you see how ridiculous that is? My father is also an atheist, and he is equally long-winded. His philosophy just gets tiresome. Moral to the story, i know God is real, because i've had real encounters with him, as well as i've had real encounters with evil spirits. No amount of philosophical evidence can refute that. Sometimes there is no logical explanation for things. So stop trying to act like you know it all. Nobody does.

 

bryant,
the last line said it all. amen and amen.

btw, your sig pic is so cute of DI - she's as cute as a button! :wink:

 

Argument from personal experience...that's a position not evidence. If that's the case I've seen enough in my years as to why their can't possibly be a GOD..especially not a loving one.

 

I know this is not a reply to the topic but DI that's a beautiful pic in Bryant's signature

 

Who are you to say what's evidence? Were you there? Did you see what i've seen? If you think you've seen evidence as to why their can't possibly be a God, fine. That's your prerogative. But don't try and tell me that what i've seen and experienced with my own two eyes is just a "position."

 

By the way, Suprchic, and Beyoutiful, you won't believe it, but she actually hates that picture. She wishes i would use another one, but i can't help it. I like this picture just fine lol.

 

Oh it's really a beautiful pic .

 

I was just thinking of that exact question a few weeks ago. Why do blacks flock to a religion that has been used to justify oppression? And then you get into the new interpretations of the bible. That want to skip over all the blood lust and talk about how god is great. Plus you look at the history of these major religions. And they're not major religions because everyone decided to convert.

These religions pretty much slashed through numerous countries forcing people to join them, or brainwashing their offspring if they didn't convert. Africa and South America are some of the best examples. With most of South America being forced to convert by Spain and then others.Africa with the majority being Muslims and Christians, while they both slaughter the people that follow indigenous religions.

I could go on and on but I don't see why people deal with it.

 

Part of the reason why Atheism makes far more sense to me..maybe you'll enjoy this little partition of mine. I used the Book of Genesis to prove why GOD can't possibly exist. Enjoy.

I think I've accomplished the easiest way to dismantle creationists, with an argument most can understand. And using the first book the Bible or Torah to be honest. Leave out for a moment that this books is built on the legends from Babylonia. And just go through it literally at face value, the words in it itself...disprove it entirely. If I maybe so bold as to demonstrate my biblical hypothesis on how this can be done; A moment to reflect...

Let's just skip down to where MAN is supposedly created;

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.

001:027 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.

**Now notice how it goes from OUR to HIS. Goes plural to singular just like that. So does that mean originally there were 2 GODS?...(Certainly would explain the serpent business later)...Does it mean he took advice from his servants? Took some input, read some memo's on how to create mankind. **

Moving right along...we get into that "Tree business"...here's what it says BEFORE THE WARNING IS ISSUED...

1:029 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree,
in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it
shall be for meat.

**And EVERY TREE...It's the equivalent of saying HELP YOURSELVES I made it myself**

Next up, the rest period.

2:002 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he
had made.

002:003 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because
that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
and made.

**Seems highly unusual a GOD would get tired, sleepy, cranky after a long hard day of work..especially with no alcohol to relax him and veg out in-front of the cosmic couch. Then again this would explain the violence no sex, no alcohol..and since no masturbation no release. No wonder he was so vengeful in the beginning.

No rain, no irrigation, no water...how'd he grow plants?

002:005 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and
every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had
not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man
to till the ground.

2:006 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole
face of the ground.

**Now correct me if I'm wrong, but how did the plants grow before water go to them? It's not even in logical order right here and we are only in the 2nd chapter of this thing.

2:009 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree
that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of
life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of
knowledge of good and evil.

**Now, maybe it is just me but if the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" is something my kids are not supposed to go near or touch...why would I place it where they could get to it?. This already proves GOD can't see the future, nor has any real concern for human beings. A caring parent would not have even placed this thing in the same room if it was truly that dangerous...especially look at the consequences they're going to get in a moment from eating from this thing

2:016 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
the garden thou mayest freely eat:

002:017 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
shalt surely die.

**Now here's where I have the biggest problem with creationists. Now GOD has already created one person, that doesn't have any knowledge at all. But let me go literal for a moment. He specifically had NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. A) How could he have known it was bad to eat from that tree, without knowing what good and evil meant in the first place? I mean seriously, If I tell you don't light the cat on fire it' bad. And you have no concept of what "BAD" is...then how could you know it's not positive or what your concept of positive is? B) Also says nothing about his intelligence before he ate from the tree. Didn't say they were highly advanced and just had no sense of morality and were amoral. Doesn't say Adam raped Eve, didn't know she was even naked neither of them did. C) How do they know about the concept of death, if they have no knowledge of what death is? Why would they think death is a bad thing if they don't even know what it is to begin with? It's like telling a cat to park your car, just has no clue.

Moving right along to the woman in question, EVE.

002:023 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my
flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of
Man.

03:001 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea,
hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

**Now, he gave Adam all these instructions...doesn't give her ONE. None at all, just creates her...tells Adam have fun and good luck..but doesn't pull her to the side update her on current events. Now later on in the next verse...it's alluded either GOD or Adam must've told her because she debates with the TALKING SERPENT that she was warned not to eat the fruit. Problem she doesn't specifically state which tree that is....

003:002 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit
of the trees of the garden:

003:003 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the
garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall
ye touch it, lest ye die.

003:004 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

**She just never singles out which tree it is, but let's assume she knew which one. Why would GOD let a talking snake into the garden in the first place? I can't imagine GOD after having created reptiles not remembering he created one that could talk, and manipulate people. You can't say it was a test of faith, because there was no such thing. Just GOD, and two naked people. Take a look at the next verses....

003:005 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your
eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good
and evil.

003:006 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and
that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to
make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and
gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

003:007 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they
were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made
themselves aprons.

3:008 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden
in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves
from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the
garden.

003:011 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou
eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou
shouldest not eat?

**So now, they both have eaten the fruit whatever it was...ironically this ain't mentioned either. Now GOD was nowhere to be found moments before she ate this fruit, nor when Adam was about eat it as well. Just out at the bar I guess. And he's not even aware of it instantaneously....he only finds out later after stumbling back from the intergalactical kegger when he's trying to find them. "Dude, where's my parishoners"...or looking to get laid. I mean hey, he tapped Mary later. The simple fact he has to ask Adam if he ate from the tree, again further proof of no omnipotence. Remind you before they ate, how no knowledge of death or consequences...because after all if you don't know what something means...how can you be liable? It's why the justice system doesn't allow for the execution of the mentally challenged. Look at the forgiveness and a CONTRADICTION coming up...

3:016 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and
thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and
thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over
thee.

003:017 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the
voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I
commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is
the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all
the days of thy life;

**So now, they've eaten..he's punished the talking serpent by taking it's legs. And now he's punishing two people because he's never gave knowledge of death too, people he never explained that talking serpent's should not be listened too. Instead of just simply erasing their minds/starting over...after all he's only got to erase 2 PEOPLE. (Meanwhile he drowns countless others in a flood later on..but here doesn't bother to just erase 2 people...makes no logical sense)...punishes them for disobeying as command he never created them to understand till after they ate the fruit in the first place. Now the contradiction comes from when he created EVE in the first place...didn't catch it...let's go back...

2:024 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and
shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

**Now, he's made at Adam for listening to his wife...eventhough they are supposed to be operating as 1...and listen/support eachother since they are together. TISK TISK...If he would've told him strictly that his wife was to obey him, and not listen to her...isn't it logical he would've just not eaten as well...then again...no prior knowledge of nothing so how could he truly know....??


Just going not even past chapter 3 of Genesis I think I've proven my point as to why their is NO GOD, and if there is certainly not an intelligent, all knowing, all powerful one. He rested, he grew plants before giving them water, created two persons with no knowledge of anything yet expecting them to understand what he is saying, left something dangerous in harms way where they could access it, let them with an unfit nanny to observe them (even though never says why the serpent is actually there and can talk in the first place....) get's made when they actually did something together as 1...like he said they were supposed to do....and then punishes both of them for being dumb.

MAKES NO SENSE.

 

Black people are spiritual, hell I'm spiritual, but most haven't figured out how to embrace their spirituality without believing in the supernatural.

The religions that black people follow, usually Christianity or Islam, were imposed upon us by European and Arab slave traders. Pure black spirituality is something that most of us will never see, because Jesus and Allah have obscured our view for centuries.

Our starting point should be:

What does it mean to be black and spiritual without Islam or Christianity?

Then:

In what ways can we embrace our spirituality without relying upon supernatural myths?

Goddamn, I'm good.

 

Okay, if you can't see why it goes from "OUR" to "HIS" then i just don't know what to say. It's obvious that in the first paragraph, God himself is speaking, therefore he uses the word "OUR." In the second paragraph, it's obvious that it is the NARRATOR who is speaking, hence the use of the word "HIS." Pretty simple right?

If you're going to quote scriptures, you better start quoting all of it. God obviously states that they can eat of every tree except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The answer to this is simple. The originally translated word for rest means to "CEASE" to "STOP" to "ABSTAIN." In other words, "HE CEASED TO PERFORM ALL HIS CREATIVE WORK." The original word does not mean he got tired and needed rest.

Genesis 1:11- "Then God said, let the land produce vegetation; seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds. And it was so. I highlighted the part that says "And it was so" to emphasize the fact that God created everything by simply speaking it....including plants and vegetation. You ask how did the plants grow before water got to them? The answer is simple. When God spoke it, there it was.

If God knew the tree was dangerous, why would he plant it in the garden? It's simple. Because of free will. He gave them a choice. If they were never given the option (the tree never being in the garden to begin with) then it wouldn't really be free will, seeing as though the choice was no longer there to make to begin with.

Are you paying attention to the scriptures, or just skipping over relevant parts? He knows that it's bad to eat from the tree because that was the decree that God gave to him.

As far as Adam's intelligence, don't you think he had to be a highly intelligent individual, to be able to name every single bird, and living creature on the planet?

Where are you getting this idea that they have no knowledge of what death is? That's not what scripture says. Adam knew death was bad, because God told him he would surely die. Adam had knowledge of death, therefore he knew that "death" would be a bad thing. If they had no knowledge of death, God's warning would have meant nothing. And just because they didn't "heed" his warning, doesn't mean they weren't "afraid" of his warning. And if they were afraid of his warning, then they obviously had to know what death was.

And as far as knowing that they were naked after eating the fruit, it's the same as a two year old not knowing, or caring that they are running around the house naked. A two year old doesn't see any difference between his face, his hands, his knees, or any other part of his body. However, adults feel as though their bodies should always be covered. Why is that? The reason is because adults no longer have that childlike innocence. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, their innocence was stripped from them, which is why it says they realized they were naked. When your innocence is gone, it's obvious that you will have a shameful feeling of being naked.

How do you know that God didn't give Eve any instructions? The bible never says how many days they were in the garden. If Adam was given the responsibility of naming every living creature on the earth, how long do you think that took? It seems that you're under the impression that everything took place in a day's time. It's obvious that Adam and Eve were in the garden much longer than you "think" they were, and there's no way for you to know if Eve was ever given any "instructions" during that timespan or not.

Isn't it obvious that the talking snake is Lucifer? Throughout scripture, God allowed Lucifer to enter his presence to seek permission to "tempt" the humans. (I'm referring to the book of Job here). God allowed Satan to enter the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. If you're still confused as to why God would do this, maybe you should read the book of Job. It will clear it right up for you.

God was very aware of when Eve was about to eat the fruit. It goes back to free will. If you don't understand the concept of free will, then you won't understand the entire concept of God. God let them choose. He wasn't going to stop them in their tracks.

And it's not like God didn't already know what they had done. He was asking them what they had done, as a form of allowing them to confess. Just like how a parent treats a child. If the child does something bad, the parent sees it, yet still asks them if they did in fact do it. It's a way of giving the child an opportunity to confess to what they have done.

If you need another example, look no further than Cain and Abel. God wasn't walking the earth at that time (so he obviously wasn't out partying and getting drunk like you claim), yet he knew exactly when Cain killed his brother. He still asked Cain "what is this you have done?" And "where is your brother Abel?" God is not asking stupid questions. He is simply giving Cain a chance to confess what he had done.

Once again, Adam and Eve's punishment was obviously justified, because God gave them a warning/decree that they deliberately disobeyed. And again, they did in fact have knowledge of death. If they didn't, his warning wouldn't have made them afraid in the first place. It doesn't matter if the talking serpent was in the garden. God gave them one rule to follow, and they broke it. Why would he erase their minds? Has God ever erased anybodies minds? He gives us a choice. They made theirs, just like people of today still make theirs as well.

Just because a man and a woman are 1 flesh, does that automatically give them the right to deliberately disobey God? Should a man commit murder if his wife asks him to, just because they are 1 flesh? Obviously the answer is no.

 

Exactly Suprchic. I gave my few responses, but that's all i'm going to do. It was obvious from the start that this guy just wanted somebody to argue with. Heck, i'm even convinced that the whole Genesis argument was copied and pasted from some other site. He's trying to get people riled up, and it's just not worth it. So Dre, you seem like a decent guy in some of your other posts, but this one, just let it go man. Don't try and keep coming back with more arguments and more philosophy. I responded to the Genesis argument, and that's it. I'm not trying to argue with anybody about religion. Go on, enjoy the forum, but just leave this one alone man. This "rigorous debate" is going nowhere. I said my piece. I'm done with it.

 

Tony, we're half way there. 3 mo' pages and you're one prophetic man :lol:

 

I'll never understand why people got so "touchy" about religion. I imagine if it only takes a few words to shake someone's faith...not sure if that's not acknowledging something else. But for the record, that Genesis post you spoke of is mine...spent alot of years on the debate team.

 

People get so touchy about religion because it's personal.


If someone tells you something you believe is wrong, how can you be expect to not get upset? Free will and freedom of choice means we can make our own minds up, and if we truly believe something is right and someone tells us "oh that's bullshit, because I don't believe that way" it feels offensive.

You cannot have a debate when feelings are going to get hurt, and you rarely can have a religious debate without feelings getting hurt. The two just don't mix, like politics.

Arguing over something in which two people have very distinctly different views and WILL NEVER change their mind is a waste of time. What exactly is the point in debating something based on belief, not logic?

Belief, or faith, or whatever, is not based on logic. Faith itself is not a logical thing, and cannot be explained in concrete facts.

If you want to talk religion, then do so with people who are open to it. Don't argue science and facts with a devout Christian, because the two views are so different it's a guaranteed bad end because neither party is going to see the other's side.

Polite debate is about acknowledging views different from your own, making your points in a non offensive way, choosing appropriate arguments and environments for said arguments, and most importantly: being able to agree to disagree.

It also doesn't help to argue something like a religion when you yourself hold different views. It's like me arguing about problems in the black community with my boyfriend. I may be able to come up with informed opinions after reading books and watching documentaries and talking to black people, but I will never truly know what it's like because I am not part of the black community. I may be able to read all the books out there on being black, but that can never tell me what it's like, because I'm not black.

Just like being an atheist can never tell you what it feels like to be Christian, because, in my opinion, in order to lose faith enough in order to be atheist in the first place means you never had that special feeling of being close to god, otherwise you would be Christian, not atheist.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with having no god. I myself am more agnostic than anything, but previously I called myself an atheist because I felt there was nothing out there. Now my views have changed, but while I dislike very much a lot of things about the many flavors of Christianity, I cannot pretend that I know everything about it, because I don't. I've never felt that blind faith in a higher power, so I cannot make judgments on a religion I do not call my own.

I think a lot of religions are bullshit, but that doesn't mean I have any right to denounce someone else's belief simply because I don't believe it



Now then, I felt the need to make this post because of the comment tha was made about the little girl and molestation. I'm not going to use exact quotes because I'm well past my bedtime and tired, and I don't feel like grabbing them.

My personal belief on the "struggles of life", and I do not mean every day shit, I'm talking the heinous shit that scars you forever, align themselves more with the christian/fate view: things happen for a reason.

In my life I have been used, abused, mistreated, neglected, and treated in ways I believe no human should ever be treated. My scars are both tangibly written on my body and emblazoned on my mind. My life is what led me to denounce personal religion altogether in the first place, because I could not see how a loving god could have allowed me to go through so much torment. I still wonder about it, sometimes, because, coming from what I have, it's hard to believe in anything.

The main thing I have taken from my life, however, is hope. I don't know for sure if things happen for a reason or not, but in my case signs point to yes. Because of my past, I now have a drive to succeed that rivals everyone I've met in my college. I have an ambition to escape the cycles of pain and abuse I've suffered through most of my life, to better myself and the world around me, and to try my hardest to help people who've been where I have, who've felt that despair one can only feel when you know true suffering.

Because of what I have suffered I have become who I am today. A young woman with a bright future, the chance to use the talents that may or may not have been given to me by a benign higher power to make my life, and the lives of people around me, better. I have been blessed with a voice that I am not afraid to use, and the only reason I'm not afraid anymore is because I came through some tough shit. Poverty taught me to appreciate the smallest things in life. Struggle taught me humility. Survival gave me strength I never knew possible. Pain taught sympathy, and empathy. Hate taught me love. I took the shit I was handed and turned my life into something positive. One day I hope I can share my life, and my lessons, through my art.

If nothing else, a life of pain gave me a fuckload of inspiration to channel to the canvas, the paper, the microphone...any way possible.

Most importantly, my life has taught me that there's so much more worthwhile out there than wasting my time trying to convince people they're wrong. My beliefs don't usually coincide with anyone else's, so I prefer to live and let live, instead of forcing my beliefs on other people, the way everyone else has always tried to do to me.

 

If I'm going to read something long, I'd rather it be something by Dostoyevsky.

 

You must be so proud of yourself. Would you like a cookie?

 

Oatmeal raisin and a glass of milk too.

 

That statement says it all, girl. glad to see somebody gets it!

:wink:

 

before I touch on the subject I have a question of my own...as an athiest, do you believe in any universal energy...metaphysics etc? I don't consider myself an athiest , but I also don't ascribe to any established religion or sect....