Black People and Jesus

As a black Atheist I simply have to ask this question. Before I announce exactly what that question is, I just would like to point out I don't want this thing to become a debate of evolution vs creationism. I've done those threads before and nothing fruitful ever comes of the debate just name calling and tons of citations...with no actual discussion. The question is;

A)Why do blacks in America seem to cling to fascinated to a religion that none could argue was used to oppress this same very people?

B) Accepting for a moment blacks as a whole have moved past that historical understanding of how Christianity in American came unto them...then why is there still so much animosity between so called black Christians and some whites assuming the tenet followed is tolerance, love, understanding, and forgiveness?

C) Can you explain the separation between the black culture in Christianity from the faith itself, and why is this separation not more prevalent?

D)**If you as well are a black Atheist do you find more solace in your black peers or not? Why? And if not in your black peers, why do you think we seems to be more closed minded on this subject? Is it fear of culture/family isolation that may to a slight degree stem from families being systematically torn apart?**

 

6 pages...

 

Huh? *What you mean?*

 

lol

some people just like to stir up trouble.

 

You mean this one guy got 6 different profile names?

 

haha, no, girl. when tony said "6 pages...", he's guessing that's how long the thread is going to be. at least that's what i got from it. i'm kind of flakey sometimes, so i could be wrong.

tony, am i wrong? 8)

 

Lol I totally misunderstood it. I just thought because there were speculations about a couple of screen names here actually being one person he meant 6 are actually 1.

 

Not at all. However I' might've been wrong in my original calculations, I'm thinking more on the lines of 8-10 pages now. You know how religion is becoming a hot-bed topic in today's society with all the chaos happening and the country falling apart.

 

No I just love rigorous debate

 

well, call it what you will, BUT.....people don't "debate" over religious and political matters - they argue. those are issues that are usually very personal to people, and it's something that gets people's blood boiling...so 9 times out of 10, it's only going to be argumentative conversation. but hey...you go right ahead with your "rigorous debate".

 

Debate and argue are complementary terms, bicker and argue are not.

I look forward to a debate with strong arguments.

 

Well then maybe it is me. I just don't tend to get all testy and personal about these issues as many people do. I tend to be so objective almost to the point people think I'm devoid of emotions at all. But then again a good healthy, honest discussion can only bear fruit from reason. And one should never be scared to have them scrutinized it only makes the validation that much stronger.

 

I'm black and atheist as well, have been for over a decade and generally don't face much opposition from the local black community over it. Then again, it isn't something that most people know about me. I live in Los Angeles and it is assumed that most people you meet here hold a separate belief system from you. Religion tends to be a private issue here, as I would imagine it to be the case in most large metropolitan areas. In fact, my lack of belief has only been an issue with two people in recent years. I find that lower income and educated blacks tend to view it as problem than others in the community.

I think poor people have a need to believe in eternal life as a means of compensating for all the things (justice, prosperity, equality) they do not get in this world. In this regard, black people are no different.

 

Well as you said, most don't know that about you. And to me that is the problem. Not to say one's religion should not remain private, but to be black in America it is quite often assumed in my view that you are Christian by default. Not only due to it being so popular in America, but even moreso with many blacks here in America as well.

There was a correlation done quite some time ago as to intelligence, and religion. It found those with lower IQ's tend to be more religious than those whom scored higher.

 

People are gonna believe what they want to believe in. I really don't see a point in trying to convert people to another religion if that's not what they honestly want. As long as they know right from wrong, that's all that really matters.

 

I can not answer this question from a bm point of view, but I (a wf) know many highly intelligent people who are Christians. The corrolation could be that- a lot of times- the more intelligent and more wealthy a person becomes they tend to believe they have done this all on their own. Some tend to view themselves as God-like themselves. Instead of believing God made it all possible they look inward and give all the credit to themselves. I am not really debating this issue-just stating an observation.

 

Well said shyandsweet. That's something Jesus said himself. He talked about how difficult it is for those who are really well off (not all) to follow God, because they believe all of their success comes from their own hands. God is not telling people to be lazy and not work for what they have, he just wants them to understand that it's because of his grace that they are put in the position to succeed in the first place.

And as far as the OP, yes i am always a little surprised to see black atheists, seeing as though the majority of us were raised in christian families. Everybody has a brain of their own though, and should use it to make their own choices, and to believe what they want to believe. Even though i was raised as a christian, it is through my own personal experience/trials and tribulations, that i decided to remain one. I didn't remain a christian because that's what i was taught. I remained a christian because after living 24 years on this earth, it is what i've personally found to be the truth.

 

So then logically it has to follow that he's also responsible for people's failures as well. It can't be one sided. If you're going to state people's good fortune are helped along by the grace of GOD, fine. Then it also stands that when people fail, and fail miserably I might add he has to take the blame as well. Truly then nothing is not one's fault. It can't be GOD is responsible for everything good and great, and then when bad things happen..ohh that's the devil...or something you did wrong..if after all his grace was guiding you.

The idea that a loving GOD would allow his supposed greatest creations to fail doesn't even seem consistent with the loving GOD anthology attributed.

Don't tell me GOD is responsible for making one a millionaire, and at the same time had nothing to do with that 6 year old 5 states away that got molested by a step parent. Otherwise it doesn't hold up in my view he's a loving good GOD. Just an amoral one...which to me is far more rational.

But assuming GOD is real..what's the explanation. If GOD is the first cause....then what's the first cause of GOD? The creator must have a creator to keep up logically with the idea. The simple fact to say GOD is and always was...just doesn't hold water once you go down the first cause scenario logically.

 

Of course God allows us to fail. What would life be without failure? How could you ever grow and mature, if everything always came easy? If there were never any tests? I know i couldn't. God "allows" things to happen. He always has. But we just have to realize that sometimes, what God does is beyond our human understanding. If we were capable of thinking like God, we might as well be God's ourselves. That's what makes him the supreme being. Maybe the little girl who was molested will eventually grow up and be a pioneer in a fight against molestation, and will help the healing and recovery process of thousands of other little girls who have been raped. How can we really know? That's just it....we don't. And the reason is because, we are not God, and we don't know the future. We don't know the effect of a tragedy. We don't know if a single tragedy, will result in the salvation of thousands of people somehow. Those are only things that God knows. Hope that made sense.

Your question of, "if God is the first cause, then what's the cause of God?" is a common one. The answer is simple. God "created" the concept of cause. God "created" the concept of effect. God created the concept of time, and everything else that we know and are familiar with. Therefore if God created the concept of cause and effect, it's not possible for him to be bound by the very concept that he created. You can't try and put human limitations on God. If you did, you wouldn't have any logical explanation for how he could create an entire Galaxy just from the words of his mouth. To a logical human, that wouldn't make any sense. It would seem impossible. And so would the thought that God has no creator of his own. If God had a creator of his own, then what would be the point of worshipping God in the first place? Shouldn't we search out the creator of God and worship him instead? You see what i mean? You can't try and use flawed human logic, to explain the existence of a supreme being. Just accept the fact that there are going to be things that we as humans, don't understand.

 

Ohh you're making me laugh. I've heard these arguments all before and they always come up incredibly short my friend.

First off. Take your premise "God allows failure. Well just speaking from a biblical standpoint...not logical yet. Why did he then banish Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden? Cleary if he was omniscient he would have seen this coming.

Second, now they didn't get kicked out till they ate from the wrong tree. You could conted he warned them not to or they would die. However, them having no knowledge of what "death" possibly could've meant...was a cruel setup because they WERE MEANT to fail in the first place. It's like me warning a child to now swallow that cup, and they having no clue as to the effects of what's inside..could be posion. They don't what poison is. Sure they don't go drink while they are infront of me, I go away for a few seconds..then they swallow. They had no idea posion was "bad" for them.

Third, why was the tree there in the first place? God had to have known their intelligence levels. He created them. There's no believeable way he could not have known how stupid he made them. But let's say he thought they had enough capacity to understand. Why would you place such a dangerous object where your kids can get to it? Seriosuly. You wouldn't but a gun on a kitchen table and tell your 5 year old...don't touch it it's dangerous..and still leave it there. Why? Because you know the reality their curiosity atleast has the chance to get the best of them. And even if they always follow what you say...why take the chance? No loving parent...or entity for that matter would leave something so grave, so important like that left to chance.

Your second question as to the meaning of life?

Science alone cannot provide a meaning to life. Criticizing a scientific theory for failing to provide ultimate meanings is to miss the point of science entirely. If this criticism was valid, then one could just as easily criticize the incompetence of Christianity because the Bible does not contain recipes for cheesecake or instructions on how to do physics homework.

Why does life need to be justified with a meaning? People might want their lives to have meaning, but this does not mean that they do. Even if man did not arise by chance, and even if life has some definite meaning, it is not necessarily the meaning you think it is, or the meaning you want it to be. It is impossible for you to deduce the honesty of your deity unless you catch Him in a lie, and if you never do, that might just mean He's a good liar. By this same train of logic, the cash prize of a lottery is worthless because the winning numbers are chosen at random.

God "allows" things to happen. You can't sit there and rationally or morally justify the killing or molestation of a child to have a sacred or holy meaning to it, there is no possible excuse for GOD placing that child in that kind of situation. EVER. PERIOD. That very fact that a GOD with infinte powers would allow such a thing to happen, shows his incompetency. If GOD were a corporation you know how many times it would have been citied for failures to protect it's consumers, deceptive business practices, and outright false advertising? God does nothing beyond human understanding, because there is no GOD.

And what if that little girl becomes lesbian because she no longer trusts men? Does GOD for his failure get to screw her over twice out of heaven because she was molested and he didn't do nothing to stop it in the first place...and a second time because she "choose" to be gay and therefore is a sinner.

You fail miserably at the argument of first causation. I'm sorry but this is one of the weakest answers I've ever gotten. And it's partially not your fault, because as one of the faithful you have to ignore the obvious logical conclusion.

Which is, If GOD is so complex beyond our understanding...then there has to be something far more complex and beyond GOD's understanding that created it. You're trying to use a physics argument to prove your point. If GOD created the universe, then the creator too has to have a creator...otherwise your just being dishonest about the shortcomings of your faith because you are attached to it.

The reason why people who don't like the "first cause" argument is because, your only logical recourse as a person of faith is to skip over it. Because it invalidates your point. God created everything, what created GOD? GOD always was as is. That's called intellectual escapism...or simply not answering the question. If GOD had a creator it would just keep on going....in which logically there is no end point. You could argue it's nihilism, but no further than that. To say it was GOD it's GOD...when you have no proof of their being one...is not only defeatist...but a straw man.

Human logic is superior to faith because it can be flawed, and from flaws can come correction. But faith is the most dishonest, vile, horrid thing any human can engage in simply. Why? Because there are no questions asked, there is no validity to the claim. There is nothing believable about any of it...because it stands on nothing other than an congregation of minds who simply thought of the question...found it too hard to answer because one was not readily available to them.

The idea that people today are basing their lives on the belief structure of primitive people's whose intellectual capacity alone far less than ours today is amazing at this point in human history. There are only two reasons people follow faith in a pure sense...tradition...socializing. If religion was not traditionalized it would be dismiss just as we do magicians in Vegas. It's also very socializing humans love to get together talk, share stories, etc.

Faith is an absolutist concept in of itself. It allows no real variation. It can't. You either believe that faith to be true, or you don't. There is no I'm kinda sorta a believer in X faith. Either you do based on stories or you don't based on lack of evidence.

Reason, proof, logic, evidence...you need an awful lot of information, study, testing, experimentation, and control variables to prove even the simplest of scientific ideals and phenomena.