Africans are stupid?

Ok, I've heard this so many times. The classic reasoning is "Africans are stupid or they wouldn't have so many children when they don't have any food"- a reasoning that doesn't make sense. We too used to have a lot of children even if we ocationally faced starvation (like the famous great famine in Irland- aprox 1840 I believe).

However I had a conversation with a nurse some weeks ago, and it actually still makes me incredibly upset when I think about it.

The nurse had been working in a hospital in Tanzania for 6 months or so, and she was pretty much fed up with the whole continent. "People are all lazy, only show up to work when they want to" etc etc, and she finnished by saying "and they are so stupid!"

The reason for the last outburst was (amogst some other episodes) an insident where a mother took her little daughter to the hospital after setting fire on her. The girl had epilepsy, but the local "witch-doctor" had told the mother the shaking was becasue she was possesed by an evil spirit. The only thing that might save the girl's life was setting her on fire.

Ok, I admit, there's a lot of horrible and sad things to say about that episode. But I strongly object to the mother being stupid. Uneducated and superstitious, absolutely, but not stupid. She was desperate and did the only thing she believed she could do to help her child. The mecanism behind this mother putting fire to her girl, is just the same as the mecanism that makes western parents put their children in months or years of extremely painfull chemotherapy. They're all just desperate, love their children, and do what someone they believe is qualified tell them to do. (The nurse refused to accept that though...)


*sigh*
Any input?

 

Wow Ronja, talk about launching some controversial subjects!!!

Well, If I were to elaborate on this subject, there wouldn't be enough space for me on this forum...
My opinion is that many, too many ppl in Africa are ignorant, still living in fear and with a bunch of superstitions!
Many are exactly like ppl were in europe in the middle age, completely submitted to a bunch of religions (Christian or traditional) that rule and ppl have forgotten how to use their brain! Talk about some 400 years behind!!!

They are not stupid, they are just victim of a system that tells them that if u are not cheating you are not trying, victims of extreme of poverty which leads them to yield to corruption, victims of the exploitation of religions and superstitions, and it is true, many are lazy because they're always trying to get byt with cheating and corruption

BUT, don't get me wrong, when I say victims, I do not give them a pass...Africans need to get tehmselves out of this funk, not foreign countries or foreign help...and until Africans realize that, they will alwyas stay in their ignorance and putrid governing systems! Which honestly I believe, will not change before one or two centuries...and I mean it!!!

They -Africans- certainly aren't stupid...many African guys on this forum are a leaving proof of that!

 

Is it really that controversial? I doubt I'm the only one who's heard someone saying Africans are stupid, so the controversial part must be me saying that they're not

I totally agree that there's way too much superstition in Africa. Traditions have far too much power, and that's actually nothing but a huge humanitarian tragedy. But noone should blame uneducated people for making uneducated choises.

I strongly believe that empowerment of women, is the main thing that could help Africa. Let me use Swaziland as an example, since that's the country I know (and love) the most. Until 2006 when they got a new constitution women were considered minors. They could not get a loan, sign any contracts, own property, or open a bank acount without the permision of a male relative. They were also obliged to have a two year mouring periode when their husband died, in that period they were not allowed to selling their goods at the market (amongst other things). Also, Swaziland has the world highest HIV-rate so there's a lot of widows there. So what do a widow do to survive? She can't get a job, she can't get a loan, and she can't sell her own crops. The only option left is taking the children out of school and make them go to the market for her. Wich means that without the changing of theese traditions (in the Swazi-case actual written laws), even free education won't help, cause a lot of people can't aford to have their children waste time in school. (One of the traditional solutions to the "how can a widow survive"-problem, was making the widow marry her dead husband's brother by the way. Until 2006 it wasn't illegal to force women into marriage, and it was being practiced. Probably still is...) Of course the new laws are really great and all, the big question is if women are being told about their new rights...

I'm happy that I'm much more optimistic than you are about Africa's future though, Jrem
I think it'll be much better in Africa in just 50 years or so. Maybe even less.

First of all: right now Asia is blooming, because of companies outsourcing. That's great, but it mens that given some time, salaries, living costs etc will rise there too, and companies will start searching for cheap labour elswhere. And there's only Africa left...

Second: a lot of things will change because it simply has to in order for the society to function. No matter how tradtional, Africa will face modern problems that needs modern solutions. For instance the new rights of Swazi women, did not mainly come because of women's right's groups, but because they have a huge surplus of women there (HIV)- and when there's no men left to contribute to the society, sooner or later the crazy king had to realize that the old laws and traditions were just a huge waste of human resourses.

Third: right now a lot of the African leaders, like Mugabe, seems to be the same leaders that led their countries to independence. Of course, for any country that person is a hero, and hence getting rid of them is hard, cause a lot of people on some level feel loyal to them. Theese leader were often great millitary leaders, but suck when it comes to actual ruling countries. However, they're all getting old, so new leaders will come really soon. There'll probably be some rumble when that happens, but the public will probably be much less loyal to the new leaders, so they need to rule better in order to maintain their positions.

hmmm... did that make sense?

 

The problem is Africa hasn't had the time to develop on its own. Colonization forced foreign systems on Africans and destroyed their own. Not to mention taking millions of farmers,leaders,etc and enslaving or killing them. They destroyed the countries natural development. And then after teaching the new generations to be dependent on them. They left the countries in shambles. Pretty much leaving leaders they put in place to run these countries. And they still to this day never tried correcting what they did. Just look at the Native Americans reservations. They are horrible and filled with poverty.

And look at South Africa there is a substantial amount of black poverty. And who owns all the mines,farms,etc in these countries? You can't destroy someone and then let them go with absolutely nothing. Imagine if I took a family hostage in my basement. Beat them everyday to follow what I wanted. And then taught the next generation of kids my ideologies and systems. And then let the next generation finally go with no money and I piled on debt to build them some crappy home on my new farm I got from their ancestors. While paying them the money I got from taking their resources and tacking on debt.

 

Blaming the whites alone is, no matter how tempting, way too simple.

Look at the former Asian colonies- many of them are actually doing quite well. Much better than the average African country at least. And they've had everything forced upon them as well, and they've had aprox the same amount of time to develop...

About South-Africa: Things are evening out there. Much because of the land reform in 1994. There are actually a great deal of quite poor whites there now, and a great deal of extremely wealthy blacks. The poorest ones are still black, no doubt, but being white there is not at all as easy and glamorous as it used to be...

 

Hmmm...Ronja, I think you need to revise your stats on how things are evening out in South Africa...

Sure there a wealthy blacks and poor whites over there...just like there are wealthy blacks and poor whites in the US...saying things are evening out is...sorry, totally erroneous!!! the ratio of blacks living with NOTHING compared to whites, in South Africa is still HUGE!!!

Well, as for your comparison between Asian colonies and African colonies, remember that countries like the US helped rebuild some of these Asian colonies from top to bottom...something they never did in Africa...also, it is true that Asian ppl have a different mentality, more cohesion between themselves and that's also bcoz their colonization was not nearly as long and crippling as the on suffered (physically and mentally) by African countries!!
Blaming everything on the whites is far too simple, I agree, but no matter how bad it makes you feel, a LOT of the blame is on the colonizers...and a LOT of the blame is on Africans and their lack of cohesion and patriotism!

To finish, I admire your optimism about the development of Africa, which seems a bit naive to me...I know you've been to Africa, but I've lived there, for 17 years of my life...I know ppl mentalities and trust me, they are not about to change within 50 years...but hey, we need dreamers in the world, sometimes they make it more beautiful than it is!!

 

Asian colonization and African colonization were not even close. I never said to just blame all whites. But taking them out of the equation is ridiculous because they are one of the huge problems and continue to screw up the countries even more for their interest's.Another problem is of course soil. Unlike other continents most of Africa's soil is not good for agriculture. Development of agriculture is tied to development of countries.One of the reason Africa's past empires eventually failed was because of decline of fertile soil.Agricultural development caused hunter-gathers to come together and start forming permanent societies. Of course colonization came and made it worse. That natural progression of culture was destroyed by colonists. Africa has to get back to its roots before it can progress

Also I wouldn't say Africans are stupid. They're like any other human being. Remember when people use to get bled in the West when they were sick?Or when they thought people were witches?That natural progression was halted in Africa.

 

I said evening out, not even. It's far from even. But blacks are slowly getting more and more of the surplus, meaning that withes slowly get less. You won't believe how many troubled white South-Africans I've met, complainting about how hard it is to get jobs etc now days

That's another of Africa's problems... You people have just lost all hope... Come on!!!! A lot of things can change in 50 years!!! A lot of things has happend in just the last 15- and to the better.

For instance lot of wars have ended -some have started, but I bet that if we start counting, more has ended. The Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Mosambique, Liberia... Ok, all of those countries still suck a great deal (and there's a lot of tension there, naturally- they've just come out of wars) but they are getting better. Mosambique is actually doing really good, they're definately improving.

I personally, don't feel bad about it. I've never colonized anyone
But I think Europe and US (cause they have earned on colonization as well) owe Africa and Asia a HUGE compensation. They'll never get it though. It would cost too much.

However, it seems like a lot of people, black and white, like to blame whites for everything that's happening over there. And that's not good. We absolutely have a lot of the blame, but everyone have to take their future into their own hands. Noone can play the victim-role forever, they'll just get caught in it.

It's just very strange to me, but even Africans seems to believe in the African stereotypes. And then they just give up without even bothering to try...

Not just the stereotypes conserning history/politics etc (like my BF, who has never voted, cause "it wouldn't help". (I agree, Biya is currupt as hell, and frauds all elections, he's even been ranked as one of the worlds 20 worst living dictators... but still, if you don't vote, you can never actually be 100% sure that it won't help. It's the least you can try doing to change something). But even conserning issues like for instance hunger Africans themselves actually believe in the stereotypes.

For instance I was listening to "Africa have your say" on BBC, probably a month ago or so, and the program was about obesity in Africa. There are actually now more overweight people in Africa than starving ones... (don't get me wrong, a lot of people are starving and are in desperate need help!). You won't believe how upset the callers were. The majority of them more or less called the program hosts for liars. I especially remember an woman from Bamenda, claiming that "the problem here is that we don't have enough food", and a guest (doctor/researcher from WHO) told her that "well, 20% of Cameroonians are actually overweight". She just got so defensive! He could just as well have spoken to the waves on the ocean or something... Seriously, even when she's living there, with 20% overweight people surrounding her, she couldn't see past the stereotype- Africans are all starving...

(For the record, there are not a lot of obese people in Africa, however more and more are getting overweight...Not the same thing... So they don't have the problem the west have -yet.)

Even that isn't all about colonialism. If so one should think that Ethiopia would be one of the best African countries... If not the best. And that country is one huge mess.

Yes, you can't grow stuff in Sahara, but there is a lot of good land as well. Especially if you grow local fruits/vegetables, and not just sugercanes and rice that need a lot of water. With decent irragtion and a little more modern agriculture, the fertile land could also be used much better. African agriculture is generally hopelessly inefficient.

Also, you're forgetting that they have a lot of other natural resources. The nature is a recourse in itself, as Kenya have figured out (tourism). Huge parts of Africa's also rich on minerals and oil.

Back to it's roots? How far back? To the traditional tribal systems, that are still very much alive and kicking by the way. Sorry, that's no solution. Noone want to go backwards.

That "natural progression" was haltered in Asia as well. For instance it was the British who outlawed widdow-burning (sati) in India...

 

Only 17 years? Shit, I've been there almost as long as you have!!:lol:
Ok, not quite. But you're still a pretty lame excuse for an African, aren't you How old are you now? 30? So you haven't been there almost half your life?

Well, you'd better hurry back, or I'll spend more of my life there than you ever will

(Just kidding!)

Seriously, I'm absolutely positivly sure you know Africa better than me. But I'm also quite convinced that I'm more objective...
Or maybe not... you've "fled" the place while I can't wait to go back...
I think I see a slight difference in our attitude...

 

The Africans are trying to progress. Remember they said trade not aid. They don't want the loans and all that other crap. They want the West to stop screwing them on trading. Look at what all that trade did to China. If someone is sending you loans and aid they want you to be under their thumb.

 

I know, and I totally agree on your reasoning.
(And I try doing my share by buying African products if available. For instance I haven't bought wine from anywhere else for years. It's not a lot, but one simple thing I can do as a consumer.)

 

Better help would be if these aid concerts instead tried to raise awareness about fair trade. Nobody wants to be dependent on someone else. I'm tired of the government subsidizing these industries. Let these companies fail that can't compete. Like President Bush failed every business he started but his baseball team and oil companies were bailed out by the government and of course the Bin Laden family.

 

Ok, here is the deal...
The African that self-pities himself says: It's SOLELY the white man's fault
The African who doesn't care says: I don't give a damn, I'm fleeing the country (to use your term)
The utopist African says: in 50 years we'll change it all...when it took centuries for Western democracies to reach their full potential

And then the European who knows Africa very well says:
"Oh wait...you started the race with a few centuries late, but hey, c'mon, be more optimistic, turn things around!!"
Now of these Europeans, you have two types: the naive ones (you) and the ones who just exploit Africa thoroughly and want to pretend that they are trying to help!

Which African am I you wonder? a hybrid of the utopist and the guys who doesn't give a damn! I am impressed though by your saying that you are more objective...isn't realism a part of objectivity? I do not see a lot of realism in your opinions, but a LOT of good hearted thoughts...which, hey, is nice!!

Remember something though: Europe mainly and the US as well for that matter, have no interest in Africa becoming more developed and more independent...please do not ask me why!!

And that makes a HUGE difference between realism and good-hearted thoughts!!!

Africans are to blame for a lot of the mess in their continent...but no matter how ppl try to turn it, Africans started the poker game with a very, very unfair hand...and if they are not as optimistic as you are, it may be bcoz it's not something that has been happening for 50 years...but centuries...

Now, hey, we need ppl like you, we need Martin Luther King, we need ppl who "have a dream"...there's no doubt...at least they can change the color of a grain of sand on the beach into blue or green..it's better than nothing!!

ps: Things are not even close to evening out in South Africa...the whites who complain are complaining bcoz for once in their life, they don't have 99.9% of the power and jobs, but 97.9%...talk about evening out!! c'mon!

 

Anyone hear about this African command the US plans on starting? I knew it was a matter of time before Bush wanted to secure that oil,since Iraq isn't going over very well.


U.S. steps up its military presence in Africa

Johannesburg, South Africa - When the Bush administration announced the creation of a new Africa Command within its military forces last February, many African diplomats were horrified. Some expressed fears that the US military would follow in the colonial footsteps of Europe in establishing a military presence on the continent with an eye toward controlling Africa's vast resources.


But a few African leaders said, "It's about time."

This week, Africom – as it is known – becomes officially operational, and the man expected to be confirmed as its first commander, Gen. William Ward, will have his work cut out for him in explaining just what the US military intends to do in Africa.

"We can't be the fire department always," says Theresa Whelan, deputy assistant secretary of Defense for African affairs. "We don't have the capacity to constantly run around and solve this disaster and that disaster. Other people have to develop their own fire departments, but we can help them develop their own capacity."

Africa's ambivalence, and in some cases outright antipathy, to a stepped-up US military presence on the continent is born of a long and bitter history of past foreign interventions by British, French, Italian, German, Belgian, Portuguese, and Arab armies. But as Washington begins to understand the strategic importance of Africa – from keeping Al Qaeda from gaining new footholds to the fact that the US now imports nearly 22 percent of its oil from African countries – the arrival of an Africa Command was just a matter of time.

US now relies more on Africa for oil
"It's not just Nigeria; Ghana is also exporting, and it's sweet, light crude, so West Africa has become more important," says Richard Cornwell, senior analyst at the Institute for Security Studies in Tshwane, as the capital of South Africa (Pretoria) is now called. "This must exercise their [American] minds quite considerably."

The test of Washington's commitment to Africa, Mr. Cornwell adds, is whether it is willing to "put boots on the ground. If America sends its troops to Congo to show its commitment, or to Liberia or Sierra Leone, then we're talking something different" from its usual short-term operations, such as its humanitarian deployment in Somalia in 1992.

American military planners have been quick to point out that this is merely a "reorganization," not an expansion of military might into Africa. Until this year, US military operations in Africa, such as humanitarian airlifts or evacuation of US citizens, were coordinated by three separate commands: European Command in Stuttgart, Germany; Central Command in Tampa Bay, Florida; and Pacific Command in Hawaii. For now, the new Africa Command will remain in Stuttgart, but will have its own chain of command, and its own priorities for building military ties with friendly African countries.

While the US once saw Africa as a "good jumping off point for operations in the Middle East," Whelan says, "now we find ourselves in the post-9/11 world, and African is becoming strategically relevant to the US on its own merits."

Yet while a handful of African countries have welcomed the new Africom – Liberian President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf has offered her country as a base for Africom – others have seen it as a threat. The 14-nation Southern African Development Community (SADC) recently voted to reject it. "Africa has to avoid the presence of foreign forces on its soil, particularly if any influx of soldiers might affect relations between sister African countries," South Africa's Defense Minister Mosiuoa Lekota said in August, after the SADC meeting.

Libya's ambassador to South Africa, Abdullahi Alzubedi, echoed the alarm. "How can the US divide the world up into its own military commands? Wasn't that for the UN to do? What would happen if China also decided to create its Africa command? Would this not lead to conflict on the continent?"

A single HQ, but no new bases?
There are no current plans to build new military bases, beyond the current contingent of 1,500 US troops stationed at France's Camp Lemonier in Djibouti, says Whelan. "This is a reorganization of ourselves; we're looking at how we do business so we have a single headquarters looking at Africa, rather than three."

Whelan says that the US hopes to "build local capacity" through joint training exercises and through the ongoing Trans-Sahara Counter-Terrorism Partnership, which trains the militaries of a number of sub-Saharan African countries, from Mauritania to Nigeria to Chad, in counterinsurgency methods.

"We began to think: 'Why not do some work at the front end?' " says Whelan. "Why can't the Department of Defense contribute more to build up local national capacity before small problems become crises, and before crises become catastrophes.

 

First post here.

China's presence in Africa is growing immensely, I believe even faster than with the U.S. They also use a different approach, they don't attach strings and requirements to their trade as the U.S. does. Not only that, they are actually establishing a clear presence and even investing in the local infrastructures. There are some allegations of them importing Chinese workers and effectively keeping the trade with themselves, though the growth of both through Sino-African trade is unquestionable.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9557/

As for Africans being stupid, hah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_the_United_States#Educational_Attainment

 

It 's stung me to the quick .Yes I'm african Ok this could as usual the part one my reply on such isse ronja probably you've been in Africa...What I can say youis YOU HAVE TO COME IN THE 21ST CENTURY .
New generation of youth in Africa are ...how to say it have an all penetrating spirit really alive .That's not the pics tou see on t.v
Each man has a skill a particuliar skill which makes him unique inthe universe . One of my personnal quotes Find your own be positive excuse me if I'm crude but get out of this dead and frozen cliche[/i]

 

I'm sorry. English is not my first language, so I don't really think I quite understand what you're trying to say.

However, I think you've misunderstood me. I've never said Africans are stupid...I've actually said they're not.

 

africans stupid?

i know several african people here in england, far from being stupid, they strive for education. 1 lady in particular is on the same diploma course as i am, she has been here for 5 years and it all started with english speaking lessons. she is now doing a diploma in counselling with every intention of going back home and using her skills to help people. she accepts that the people in her town are very supersitious and set in their ways, and her perspective is influenced by the english ways she is learning.
to say africans are stupid is very unfair.

 

generalization at it's finest



some people need to be around others before making such piss assumptions..

I have an uncle-in-law who is African, who runs his own businesses, drives bmws, and is very saavy when it comes to entrepreneurial goals.

I wouldn't consider myself to be an idiot, by far, but I'm not as versed in that area as he is, so I would never think that he was stupid. He'll probably make more money than I ever will, in my lifetime, which takes some intelligence that you probably won't find in some books.

 

bcos of where i stay ive only ever dated african bm + i can honestly say that the comment is soooo far from the truth!
all the guys ive met are aiming for/have no less than a masters in whatever it is they choose 2 study and in most cases its drilling/reservoir/oil & gas engineering. and they aint easy subjects!