Affirmative Action!

Recently John McCain changed his position on affirmative action and is now supporting a motion in the state of Arizona to ban affirmative action.

What is your opinion on affirmative action?

(Moderators and webmaster...please dont get carried away with the fire extinguishers.)

 

while i understand why such a thing exists, i think it's sad that we live in a society where we find it "necessary" to have to use affirmative action.

and as a woman, the thought of being hired just b/c of my sexual make.up and not b/c of my brains or the fact that i'm damn well qualified for a certain position, pisses me off. if i earned a position, give it to me for THAT reason....not b/c i wear lipstick and high heels. ya know?

those are my thoughts. i might be in the minority though - we'll see.

 

S-chic, you're looking at this the wrong way. Affirmative action isnt designed to give jobs to the underqualified, but to give qualified minority applicants an opprotunity they wouldnt otherwise get because of engrained system of discrimination. (The whole "giving jobs to underqualified people" is a conservative ploy to undermine A.A.)

What if despite your obvious qualifications, there was a subculture designed to keep you from the more desirable jobs because you wear heels and lipstick? (Many would argue that subculture does still exists and exclude women from the more desirable jobs, but women arent as vigilant as blacks about demanding equal consideration.)

You know what they say...well behaved women rarely make history.

 

In Canada we have the same thing but it is called Employment Equity. My first "career" opportunity was given to me as a result of EE. The reason I got the job was because I was a female. I was very qualified for the job but I work in a male dominated field. The only reason I was hired was because they needed a female on staff or they would be facing problems with the government.

When I walked into work the first day you could have heard a pin drop. I got dirty looks, snide comments and people would literally ignore me when I asked them a question. Never mind that I was MORE qualified than every single person there except for the senior project manager.

My 2nd day of work I went to sit down at my desk and there was a lipstick, a nail file and a playboy centerfold waiting for me. Nice. I did not say a word to anyone about it. That night I went out and bought 15 pigs and went to work early the next day and put them on all of my co-workers desks. I did not mention it and neither did they, but a few of them said a few polite words to me.
It took about 3 months to become accepted by most of them and after that it was ok. After a year the project manager left and the position became open. I applied for it and I got the job I thought "oh shit" here we go again. I was surprised by the reaction. A lot of people told me I deserved the job and that they were happy for me.

I never would have gotten that first job if it had not been for Employment Equity. It was rough at first but once I proved to those assholes that I could do the job they were willing to give me a chance.

I hate to admit it but it is still SORELY needed. Those in power just don't want to share it.

 

i get what you're saying. and i do agree that a.a. isn't geared toward women as much as it is toward blacks, hispanics, and other minorities.

but my whole point isn't that i'm in fear that someone who is "underqualified" is going to get the position that i want. my point is that i DON'T want to be hired based on the fact that i am woman. i want to be hired b/c i worked hard for my degree...i worked hard to gain experience for "x" position....and i want to be hired b/c the employer looks at me as someone who is going to help their company - not b/c i'm the woman that they need to match their quota. for me to be hired just b/c i'm female is a slap in the face to me - especially after busting my @ss for my degree.

i know i have a different perspective b/c i'm not a minority, but you wanted opinions. also, i'm not saying that a.a. is wrong...i just wish their was a better way. like i said, it's sad that we live in a world where people still "hate" b/c of a person's skin color. maybe one day we'll all wake up.

 

:smt038 Kudos to you for not letting their attitudes run you off the job! That's awesome that you stuck with it, and they accepted you.

I work for a Japanese manufacturing company. We have a production floor, receiving/distribution, warehouse, repair, office, the whole works. There is a section in the warehouse that is set aside for offices and is air conditioned. There were all men up in the section, for many years. And this one woman started up there, and she asked for a key to lock "her" bathroom. Some of the men got mad because they no longer had access to that bathroom. But, eventually, they got over it. I don't hear the complaints about it anymore. But, it just goes to show how hard it is for someone of the opposite sex to get accepted as part of the team...

Good job!

 

So you will accept a world where employers systematically reject you because you're a woman, despite the fact you're just as qualifed as the next MAN...and dont think anything should be done about it even though men are being chosen around you, who may not be as qualified as you?

You're right. You did work hard for your degree and your degree is just as much a statement that you're as qualified as any man!

But let's cut through the bull! You and I both know that a huge segment of jobs are not filled by the MOST qualified person, but by one person who is selected out of a group of equally qualifed candidates. Especially when you're talking about people fresh out of college or entry level positions in a particular field. And lets be real. People are most comfortable around those who are most like them, which is why white men (maybe subconsciously) disciminately select white men.

Which is why black people have always said that "we have to be twice as good as the 'other" (read: white) candidates just to get a fair shake."

So let me ask you, "as long as the system is in place, and select few qualified women are selected and the men keep picking men, how do women get a chance to prove they can do the job?"

 

Thanks girl!

I just think people are really afraid of change. They will hold on to what is familiar to them by the skin of their fingernails. I knew that them putting the playboy and crap on my desk was a test. Had I freaked out and gone to my boss, my life would have been hell! I know I can take whatever anyone dishes out. i also know that I DESERVED that job. When we went on our first overseas assignment I knew I had to prove myself and that meant doing twice what the guys were doing. When we got out there and were standing in our waste up to shit, I could not flinch. The guys were freaking out and I knew I had to stay calm and keep talking and be a pro. I could not give them a reason to criticize me.
I know I got that job because Iwas a woman but I also know that every job I have been given since then is because I was the most qualified for the job and I damn well earned it!

 

i havent even read the thread but before it starts to grow please read up on the subject before you open your mouth.

I cant think of to many things outside of affirmative action that provide a hard knee jerk reaction. For the most part people fuck up the whole idea of it.

I especially love it when people start off about having a low qualified black in a position that a higher qualified white would have if affirmative action wasnt in place.

 

i never said that NOTHING should be done about the social wrongs that we face in this country. i just don't know what the answer is. a.a. has served it's purpose - it's got a positive side. i'm just saying i'm not sure it's the BEST solution. and i don't know what the best solution is either.

racism is just an ugly reality, and unfortunately it's no stranger to the job market.

 

I too wouldn’t like to know I was employed to meet a government quota. But, I do think affirmative action is necessary in some instances. Not too familiar with American a.a laws, but if we just look at women and men in the work place for example. For most companies, if a man and women apply for a job and have identical work experiences, I believe a majority of companies would prefer to employ the male. Why? simple economics...its cheaper in the long run...As the average women wants to start a family at some point; they will need to take time of work (for maternity leave..etc) . In the UK maternity leave is 39 weeks (might be extended to 52 weeks) and the employer is expected to pay a percentage of the salary while the employee is off work. Imagine if a lady had three kids (the company would incur expenses finding people to cover for maternity leave and also pay her salary). This type of discrimination is difficult prove, but I do think a.a is necessary to combat this type of discrimination...Having said that the UK doesn’t have any a.a laws as far as I am aware.

Now affirmative action with regards to race. Again I'm not that familiar with a.a with regards to race in the USA. I know South Africa have their own a.a called Black economic empowerment (BEE), due to the past misdeeds of apartheid which im sure most people have heard of. Privileges (schooling, hospitals...etc) were loosely based on skin colour; the darker you were the less/worse privileges you had/got. The BEE in South Africa stipulates that a certain percentage of a company’s management and ownership should be black: (40-50%) and 25% respectively. This is a problem because apartheid was completely abolished as recently as 1994. And as one of the effects of Apartheid was that blacks had a lesser education, a lot of the black people filling the management roles will not be as qualified as their white counterparts. Because of this and other reasons a lot white people are leaving the country and there is a major skills shortage.

Now, some people may think it was wrong to implement BEE. I personally think it was necessary; it was just implemented recklessly. It should have been implemented progressively. By this I mean, having a very small quota for black management and progressively increasing this over a period of time. Rather than having 40- 50% black management requirement from the onset. Also BEE though divisive, can in a way bring the country together because it forces black and white to work together to meet targets...

Conclusion: I agree with affirmative action.

 

Now that I am in a position to hire people I have a system that works well.
Every CV that comes into the office is photocopied. The original stays on file and the copy is modified. ALL of the personal details are removed so when I look at the CV I have no idea if it is a man, woman and NO indication of ethnicity. I select the most qualified person based soley on abiltiy. I have a surprise during interviews because I have no idea who to expect. It works for me.

 

S-chic, why do you consistently refer to A.A. in regards to race? (Part of the conditioning of people to object to A.A. is to think that its designed to help only black people or to give jobs to people that are underqualified.)

A.A. also protects people based on religion (muslims?), ethnicity, and SEX. And the job of A.A. isnt complete and hasnt served its purpose, because there is still far too much discrimination in the workplace to get rid of A.A.

While its not the best solution (and sometimes it doesnt work as it should) it is the best thing out there at the moment.

Vanilla, thats a great idea, although I think such a practice might be illegal in the US because applications and resume's are legal documents here, and I know you cant write, highlight, mark, or deface either in any way...although many employers here in the US dont have a clue.

I remember a while ago some company lost a lawsuit because a receptionist was writing "AA" (all american) on applications to signal to the hiring manager that the candidate was white.

 

Hey Jelly,

It is not exactly 100% legal here, that is why the CV is photocopied.
We hire as a group but I have the final say. I just feel it is fair and removes any bias in the equation. People get really excited about someone's skill, experience and educational background. Once they are so keyed up about an applicant, nothing else matters. I have to say though, in my field of work it is not really an issue. I am the only white person in my office. People are really open to whoever is most qualified. I am sure my colleagues know that I would not act in a discriminatory way, but I like to have everyones input so we get the person that is the best fit. We do some heavy stuff and a new person coming on board needs to fit with the team in an emotional way. You need to know that after the shit you see at work, that person is going to be there for you to talk to and support you if you need it. THAT crosses any colour, race, gender or religious line.

 

What exactly do you do for a living? You make it sound like you handle nuclear warheads. lol.

Hmm, a sexy talker, nice curvy body, and a habitual lawbreaker who bucks the system... :smt118

 

I will try to keep this short because when i talk about work I can go on and on and on :lol:

I work for an NGO. My area of " expertise" ( I use quotes because everytime I go somewhere I feel like it is the first time and i know nothing and am scared to death) is conflict resolution and human rights litigation. So, I go to the hell holes of the earth and try to sort shit out. i do a lot of work with refugees, displaced persons, war crimes etc. i really do see the shit of the earth and somtimes I want to kill people. I get dirty, cry a lot in my tent at night and then walk out in the morning and act like I know what is going on. I have seen more dead bodies than I care to remember and have just seen some really horrific shit. BUT, the people I deal with have the most AMAZING spirits and are some of the bravest people i have ever met. I know it sounds cliche but I am honoured to meet them and hear their stories.

No nuclear warheads, def a curvy body, not much of a sexy talker but I do LIVE to buck the system. I love serving it up to the assholes in power!

 

I love people who go against the grain and challenges the system.
(There is nothing like a person who fights for the "underdog")

Keep doing what you're doing. Maybe one day we can get a chace to talk about what you do for a living. Sounds pretty interesting.

 

It really is. I can tell you there is never a dull day.
When the changes that the webmaster is proposing come through maybe we can chat. I think that will be a possibility.

:smt050

 

That would be cool. I'll keep an eye out for you...

 

Yep, and you got that crap as a WHITE woman! Eventually, they accepted you because you could do the job and you are white. Imagine if a black man or woman was in your place.