A white person's view on reparations

Indeed! He's asking a lot of question that the freakin' op already answered quite well imo. OBVIOUSLY, he didn't read it and has no intention of doing so.

Anyone fighting THAT hard against something that obviously isn't going to happen anyway has an agenda. I doubt he's even what he claims to be.

 

Wow it seems like most of what I have already posted Have been erased....good job admin.

 

lol obviously you havent at all read what I wrote... I am just defending what I wrote people who bash other peoples opioion's have problems.

Thats a clear insult lol, The Instant I do not agree with the majority on this board I am labled "ah he isn't agreeing with me so he must be bad or have something on his agenda!" get over yourself, and you doubt me? I aswell surely doubt who you claim to be aswell. :roll: [/quote]

 

[
quote] Thats a clear insult lol, The Instant I do not agree with the majority on this board I am labled "ah he isn't agreeing with me so he must be bad or have something on his agenda!" get over yourself, and you doubt me? I aswell surely doubt who you claim to be aswell. :roll: [/quote][/quote]

Ok, I will try one more time, Redfox, the vast majority of people on here welcome alternate viewpoints if they are presented in a reasonable, fact-based, logical manner. To find a good spirited debate on important issues is why many come to this site. The problem that many (including myself) have with you, is not that you have a differing viewpoint, it is that you make VERY poorly informed statements that you present as fact, without backing them up with any proof, facts, statistics ect. Your reasoning, is easily refuted, sloppy, and reeks of some kind of a nefarious agenda. My dander is still up from the "slavery was good for Blacks" statement you made. Some unsolicited advice for you, if you are going to take a position that is contrary to the majority, fine, we welcome that, just make sure you can back it up with WELL REASONED facts and LOGIC, otherwise people will suspect you for the troll that I believe you to be.

 

Where ever in my posts did I say slavery was good for blacks? I have never ever said that, What I did however say is that blacks benefited from slavery, which is entirely different from what you claim that I said. I wrote several of several posts backing up my arguement, in which I wrote why we should not get it since we have greatly benefited from it. You even requested why shouldn't we get it compared to Native amercians, and I wrote how the 2 were different and what excatly resperations is.. One member even claimed that even after resperations that even that wont be enough, not to say that she/he isn't right but that destroys the whole point in resperations. Either you aren't reading or just do not care what I have wrote, and if my arguement is poor then thats your opioion to each there own. :arrow: Btw as far as me being a troll I am far from that why dont you look up my other posts, this is the only posts anyone ever had a "problem" with my view point thanks***edit*** *sigh* nvm I give up, there isn't any point, you guys win you are right... :arrow: *walks away*

 

If I wanted to read so much, I'd buy a book.

 

speak for yourself, ballin'

i want da money

 

The main problem with this argument is, who pays who? Does the government give the reparations? Or do you expect the money to be shelled out from whites pockets? And, what about the Native Americans that owned Black slaves (yes, it happened.) I am a White, 100% Irish male (I found this thread because I am doing a summer studies project on reparations, I'm not on it for dating sorry if I am invading haha) and when tracing my family tree my first ancestor set foot on U.S. soil in 1913. They came as poor laborers who took on Northen factory jobs thats even extradited slaves would shun due to poor wages and horrid safety problems (my Great Grandfather was a Pickler for 20 cents a day and ended his career and life at age 41 with four fingers missing.) The point of this is, my family did not contribute to Slavery, directly or indirectly. In there period in the Northern U.S. (New York) they saw rapid advancements for themselves and blacks alike (such as Richard Wright writing one of the greatest novels of the 20th century before most Immigrants could read or write.) So why should I pay for others horrid sins?


The other thing to note is reparations, non-financially, HAVE been made. Whites AND Blacks have worked well together to help create opportunities for Black students that many whites, poor or not, may not see. With Equal Opportunity Employers, less qualified Blacks may be hired above a more qualified White (though this is definitely not always the case it may be vice versa) and we as a nation, Black, White, and others, have accepted it. Can you imagine the public outcry if there was a "White Only Scholarship?", as there are Black ones?

That main point of my argument (again, understand I am not trying to stir things up, I am just writing a paper eventually) is that Reparations would only stir long calmed racial tensions. How can we possibly strive for Universal Equality, and more importantly a color-blindness when one group is indebted to the other? It just is not the answer.........

 

Actually come to think of it, would it be fair to expect the USA government to pay for all reparation costs ? According to some sources the present system of govenence has only been in existence since 1789...
Prior to 1776 the USA was run by several countries such as Spain, Britain, and France. Slavery ran from 1619 to 1865.So the present USA government would really be accountable from (1789- 1865).Would it be enough to pay reparation costs for just this period? or would the French, British and Spanish governments be expected to pay the remainder? It would get very complicated...

Conclusion: I dont think it will ever happen..

 

The problem is that most poor, working class and middle class whites that come from families who never owned slaves....they believe that they shouldn't pay because they didn't benefit. You didn't have to own slaves to benefit from slavery.

The primary reason most immigrants came (and come) here is because the U.S. is the 'land of opportunity.' The wealth that this nation was able to build prior to and during industrialization came from the backs of slaves...mainly becaue the slaves were able to produce raw goods that could be sent North to be turned into processed goods and sold around the world.....and that means money....which leads to prosperity.....which leads starving Irish farmers to come across the pond and stake a claim in a new country.

As for affirmative action and "Equal Opportunity" employers....this IS NOT a response to slavery...contrary to popular belief. This was a direct response to Jim Crow and segregation. The focus is often so heavily on slavery which lasted (at least in the U.S.) from 1619-1865...Reconstruction lasted from 1865-1877.....but it's easy to forget that time frame from 1877-1965....(or later depending on your opinion). Blacks were systematically denied access to a plethora of things including jobs.

Now you might say...hey....blacks should have voted to increase their representation...black men had the right to vote right after slavery. Yes...and black men that went to the polls would often awake that night only to find someone trying to burn their house down and drag them outside to get lynched.

Your Irish could join the police force, the fire department and increase their power by voting as a bloc with the Democrats and eventually find the halls of power in government.....we could have attempted the same thing though our fate would have been the same or worse than the Native Americans.

Racial tensions need to be stirred up...that's the problem....some people want to act as if everything is OK...it's not....the fact that a discussion on reparations could make whites angry..is proof positive that race is still the giant 800 lb gorilla in the room. Blacks want to chastise whites and remind them that their advantages are related to chance and not any inherent superiority....and some whites want to history to tell them how great they are and that anything that happened in 1725, 1825 or 1925...is just that....it's the past.

But if the U.S.A. can acknowledge the Native Americans and the Japanese and even the Holucaust....why can it not acknowledge its original sin? Until someone gets down on their knees, shows some humility and shame and begs for forgiveness (and it won't be black people on their knees)...this 'discomfort' will continue to exist.

 

Having benefited from the opportunities is a very strange and unproven way to look at what has happened. If that is the case, I should have to owe the ancient Saxon Army an apology because I have benefited off of the losses they received over 1,000 years ago (you have to). You also say that because my family came over and were able to start building up a normal life is because of the indirect benefit slavery had, but in that logic have you not benefited as well? (assuming you are a Black male, if not sorry) The raw materials those slave laborers produced created clothing that kept a White man warm, who in turn may have had a son that invented an automobile, and whose Grandson may have built the house you currently live in. Its a very odd, roundabout way to look at it, isn't it?

You also mention the opportunities received in a Northern Democracy, such as the New York Police Force and Democracy. Well,

* 1836
First African American elected to public office and to serve in a state legislature: Alexander Twilight (See also: 1823)

* 1845
First African American licensed to practice law in the United States: Macon Allen from the Boston bar

* 1865
First African-American attorney admitted to the bar of the US Supreme Court: John Sweat Rock

* 1891
First African-American police officer in present-day New York City: Wiley Overton, hired by the Brooklyn Police Department seven years before the 1898 incorporation of the five boroughs into the City of New York.

All of these opportunities began to open up and by 1910 there were over 500 Black Police units in New York City alone. Were the opportunities perfect? Definitly not, but it is not as if they had been barred from NYPD and Congress.

The difference between the Japanese argument and the Slavery argument for reparations is that the Japanese were still living at the time of reparations. Not every single 1st, 2nd, or even up to 6th generation Nisei descendent was awarded money, only those who lived through the pain. More SHOULD have been done after the Civil War (there were bureau's established and Job Opportunities created) but the nation was struggling to maintain after the havoc the war wrecked.


Why would you want racial tensions? There is NO way we can hope for equality in a melting pot society when we have arguments such as this. We are not trying to forget slavery, if you look at any history class it is usually the central theme, and from a young age White children are taught to be embarrassed and ashamed of the atrocities that happened, as are Mexican American children, Asian American children, and others (most of who also had no direct role in slavery, but by your logic, benefited from the horrid sins.)

 

(Personally....I don't really think the government should hand blacks a bunch of $10,000 checks....we should have a college fund...or something that encourages urban development....I also think that affirmative action should exists to help poor scholars of all races...not just black kids and Hispanic kids....it's not fair that a poor white kid gets leapfrogged by a well-to-do black kid from a prosperous family...but I like debate...so I'm going to continue this argument)



How is looking at who has benefitted strange..especially considering the labor was free?

The amount of money the slaves generated varies depending on the estimates...but figures as low as 700 billion USD all the way to a high of 100 trillion dollars have been calculated (my guess is that it's a number in between). Think of it as lost wages....if you and I worked for a company and I was paid $100,000/year...and you were paid $50,000/year...also imagine that we had the same qualifications and did the same job with the same level of performance. Now envision that we are at a company picnic 10 years in the future and I tell you my salary....you..naturally would sue because of discrimination. The judge would see that you were supposed to make 100K/year over the last 10 years instead of 50K/year....you'd walk away with the lost income which would total $500K plus any other damages....the situation isn't much different except that the workers are now dead.


Yes, I have benefitted...but that's akin to a woman being raped and then the rape results in a child that she loves and takes care of. Then the child grows up and becomes the richest and most beloved man/woman in the world. The product of the rape is a great person but that doesn't mean you erase the original crime.


Yes there were lots of high achieving blacks....that prospered DESPITE their race and lot in American society...NOT BECAUSE of their race. There were plenty of thriving black towns and cities that were burned to the ground by lynch mobs (look up Tulsa Oklahoma, 1921 and Rosewood Florida, 1923....) Those towns are a prime example....despite the fact that few if any of the blacks are still alive from the Rosewood massacre..the state of Florida has given money to the DESCENDANTS of the victims.....hmm...sounds familiar....sounds like precedent. The state of Florida didn't take money from the whites that burned the town down...they gave money from their own coffers because they held themselves liable for not protecting the black residents....hmmm....very interesting.

It's not about racial tension....it's about taking the time to acknowledge the past.

As for history classes....the amount of time spent of slavery, Jim Crow etc. is small and the amount of time spent on African history is non-existent (compared to the histories of other nations).

White kids, Asians and Latinos are not the only ones to feel shame.....when the only chapters in a history book detail the enslavement, rape and miseducation of your people with no mention of the great inventors, scientists etc....it's not exactly the most comfortable room to be in for black kids either.

 

. Can you imagine the public outcry if there was a "White Only Scholarship?", as there are Black ones?

What, you never heard of "legacy placements"? How do you think "W" got into Harvard. And there are scholarships that are de facto White only, one example is the annual scholarship granted by the Daughters of the Conferderacy. Happens all the time.

 

Less qualified blacks? WTF!

Before you cry about affr. action and try to use it as some example of "the white man evening the tables for black people," spend some of that energy fighting the discrimination that stills takes place in this country on a daily basis. If you rid the US of discrimination, there would be no need for affr. action.

As alluded to in earlier posts, your great-great grandfather was able to make money because of an economy supported by free labor derived from slavery. And your slippery slope of current blacks benefiting from slavery is dumb and idiotic as it is insulting.

Oh, and if you want to apologize to the Saxon Army, no one's stopping you...

 

And thus, the other shoe drops.

 

Lucifer,

You crack me up! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Lucifer...a man of few, if not always, well said words.

 

Go ahead.

Let it all out.

 

Oh lord.......I need a drink!

 

Thanks for clearing all that up...again.

Is there anything else you want to add?