Prenuptial Agreement question... All Welcome!!!

You get married anyway.....You go down holding hands and singing.....In sickness and in health, in debt and in wealth.......I can't tell you how many big old lazy-ass Mandingo's, I know, fully living off women.....Getting everything paid: steaks, ribs, rent-money for the cribbs....cable, lights and spending change for the nights................You have to go thru Thick-N-Thing with the partner, no prenups.........

 

That is how in was raised. My mother is 69 and she has her own assets and so does her man. But they one shared account with just a month worth of covering monthly running expenses. That is what I was talking about in regards to a joint account. Just for monthly running expenses. I don't want to share assets, I dont see the needs for it. money arguments kill marriages more than anything else I think.

 

It does depend on the state. And UCMJ is built to protect the service member so it would make sense. I haven't been in the army for years and am finally in my stride as far as my career. Lets say I wanted to use a VA loan to buy a second home. The cap is set at $729,000. In addition to cars, my current home, and savings, she could attempt to take a portion of other veteran benefits I have as well as the current benefits and income which includes my life savings. She could also attempt to take a portion of my investments. Considering all of this without even considering future wealth is grounds for a prenup. I am not fully expecting you to understand because you haven't had the same experiences I had and I know you are religious and I respect that. A prenup is ultimately my best option assuming that I would still like to get married. I have pretty much given up in that department, but I guess I needed to hear that I wasn't being a complete penis by requesting a prenup. You are one of the few people who know ( or knew) a little about me. If you put yourself in my shoes you may hold a similar opinion. Either way thanks for the input.

 

Ummm... I've never lived off of a woman. I am annoyed with guys like that but that doesn't apply to me. As I mentioned before I broke it off.

 

No easy answer to those questions Ches, sometimes yes, sometimes no, when it comes to overriding state laws. Of course the terms of the pre-nup itself can often times be contested. One of my favorite sayings to clients is that the "law often has NOTHING to do with justice".

Bottom line is like I have already said, everyone should get educated and do EVERYTHING they can, within the law, to limit what the government can do to their finances.

 

Easy to say now Arch, you should spend some time with some of my clients who left themselves exposed to the government, and found themselves thrown out of their own house, prohibited from seeing their kids, lost a majority of their assets AND future income, all while being forced to continue to pay for a lifestyle being enjoyed by an ex and their new partner who is now enjoying the fruits of your labor. Their pain, anguish, and regret is palpable and very hard to witness, I am willing to bet you would change your mind.

 

Very true.

 

Pittsburgh? PA abolished common law marriages a few years ago didn't it?

 

I guess I can respect that. My experiences were different than yours, too. My ex & I brought nothing to the marriage but each other. No, he brought school debt & a huge car payment. Sorry. His career didn't allow me the freedom to work & provide me with retirement benefits of my own, for instance. When we divorced, he chose to leave the marriage & fortunately, he knew he needed to provide for me in such a way that I coud give my son a decent living. I'd given up my skills to fully support his career. In that instance, I believe I was entitled to what I got. Unfortunately, he was dishonorably discharged & I never saw a dime of his retirement, which again, I believe I was entitled to because we built a life together. He focused on his career & I did everything else to allow him to do that.

Now, if I were to marry again, and my partner had built up assets that had nothing to do with me, I wouldn't expect a share of those things if we divorced. So I can see how a pre-nup can be useful. Just seems cold to have to put one in place. It's like saying money trumps love.

 

I remember you mentioning that previously. And in your case, I completely agree. You assisted in building his career (and active military wives actually do assist a great deal). I am sorry things worked out that way. I suppose you are from a different time. So, your outlook on marriage is going to be different than mine. I would rep you for the comments, but I have given too much rep in the past 24 hours.

 

How do they get away with that, Loki? I have heard of people losing homes that were in their name only (single person). How can a parent be prohibited from seeing their kids if they're not a threat to them?

 

A perceived threat (whether it is an actual threat or not), is as good as the real thing. In many cases a spouse only needs to say that they feel threatened in order to attain custody, I believe they just need reasonable doubt. So, the spouse just needs to make one 911 call when they have had a drink or something along those lines. I have seen this happen and it breaks my freaking heart. I think if I want to have children I would probably hire a surrogate.

 

In cases like this, I agree with you.

 

This usually happens to fathers as there is an inherent disposition to the mother in family law. Often times there are allegations, false or otherwise, leveled by the mother that take time to be investigated, during this time the father will be prohibited. In this economy many fathers have lost their jobs/income, and have fell behind on child support, visitation can be taken away on that basis alone, fathers can even be jailed for lack of payment, judges can certainly set outrageous levels of child support/alimony to the point that the father can't pay it even if they have a job or find a lower paying job. Getting a judge to lower child support/alimony is VERY difficult even with compelling reasons/evidence to support it. I have seen numerous examples of where the ex-spouse claims that the father was not at the assigned time and place to pick up the kids even when he was, this too can lead to more time and money spent in family court trying to prove his case. Bottom line Ches there are a thousand different ways for a parent to make life very difficult for the other parent to see/spend time with their kids.

 

I think this is what happened to a friend of mine - I think I shared a bit about his experience in another thread. He kept being denied access to his kids (and I don't think there was any reason he should've been) so he became so discouraged and frustrated that he quit paying support. Not the right decision, which he admits, but I imagine he felt like little more than an ATM. He's paying for that decision now (loss of freedoms), but I simply don't understand one parent denying the other parent access to their kids.

My divorce, while not nasty, was painful and unpleasant. And as details emerged about my ex's "other life," yeah, there was such disgust and distaste towards him, that I wanted to keep my son from being with him. But, he is just as much his father's son as he is mine. His poor decisions as a husband, while disrespectful to me as his son's mother, didn't negate his ability to be a decent father nor take away the right to have access to our son.

If I can, I'd like to take the thread back to the original topic. Pre-nups. While I can see a reason for wanting one, I keep going back to the "feeling" that comes with the discussion of one. LAW's fiance said that signing one or being presented with one, made her feel like he didn't love her. I identify with that feeling. There's more to it than "I don't feel loved" but not sure what....does anyone else identify with it?

 

Well Ches, given the proliferation of "no fault" divorce, which basically means one partner can simply state that they are no longer compatible, LAW could very well argue that her asking him to put his financial neck on the government chopping block by getting married with no prenup would make him feel like she did not love him. Once again, EVERY MARRIAGE already has a prenup in place, the only difference is if you want to write one yourselves or give complete power to the government (never a good idea). It is not LAW who is forcing the prenup conversation, it is the government.

 

I see your point, Loki. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just trying to get to the "feeling" part of it, because I identify with what his fiance said. Just not sure what's behind that "feeling." Grabbing at straws - maybe because marriage is about sharing oneself with another, by keeping certain things "off limits" from the get-go, makes it feel like less of a shared experience. I would feel like my potential partner doesn't trust me to be fair, in the event of a divorce, which would make me feel as though he doesn't know or understand my character.

Maybe I would feel differently if I were the one with the assets?! Lol.

 

You are concerned about this because you aren't familiar with all that has happened in the relationship up to that point. I am not going to discuss it, but remember that for things to end up this way it's rarely just one thing. It's normally accumulative. And I do agree that you would feel differently if you were on your way to making your first million and could be put in a vulnerable position to lose it ( if you factor in the hard work, time, struggle, and sacrifices it took to get there your opinion may possibly be different).

I doubt you would put yourself in a position to lose your children, your home (fully paid with your own money), a second home (paid for with your hard work), your investments and the countless hours it took to get your investment strategy down to a T, and your life savings not to mention all future wealth ( and the extra hard work you had to put in as a black man considering you dont have the luxury of white privilege). I am not sure when you were married but if it was in the 70s this wasn't as much of an issue. Neither in the early 80s. Unfortunately, it is a reality now. Would you put yourself in that position?

 

Fair enough.

As I said, for me, it's more that I think I would feel like I can't be trusted, that my character is flawed when it comes to being fair over a division of assets. I would hope that, especially if a man has a generous heart/attitude towards me and even assumes some/all of my debt (as you indicated) that I would be, even amidst the anguish of a divorce, deeply grateful and fair.

In my case, our division of assets was done with a settlement agreement during the divorce process. When we got married, we had nothing but debt to protect and we kinda went out the same way. Lol (And, lest I be only uncomplimentary towards my ex, I am grateful that he assumed all of our debt - it should've been split 50-50 - and he proposed a generous child support amount in lieu of alimony.)

I do take issue with the last bolded statement, only because you would be together while earning that wealth - that would be shared wealth, imo.

PS Honey, I was still in school in the 70's. I'm old, but I'm not that old!! Lol

 

Sorry about the dates. As far as future well, there are many avenues to it. For instance, I am a fan of stock speculation, however, there are plenty of benefits to value investing as well. Now, lets say I am invested diversely in various companies. Then I get married. In 5 years she wants a divorce after she cheats on me (in a no fault state you can do that without consequence). Interestingly enough, in a 4 year span not only did we end up with 2 bull markets, but the companies that I invested in, just prior to the marriage, grow heavily to say... a Gil Morales 19,000 %. Now this is all hypothetical of course. But, if I increase my stake in the various companies pyramiding monthly and say I started in at 100,000. By the time she decides she wants a divorce, not including the pyramiding, nor the taxes, I am looking at 19,100,000. In 5 years do you honestly believe that she is worth half of that? I am not sure how often you invest or your method. I am also unaware of your career, previous careers, and any possible injuries and so on. But, you honestly feel that in say 5 to 10 years a person is worth half of that hard work?