Heroes and Racism

I recently read on another board some comments about Muhammad Ali and how he should not have been given a metal due to his racists views early on in life (along with his overturned conviction of beating his wife 10 years ago). There are many socially and politically important people who espoused racists views. Most gave them up later in life.

Ali when involved with NOI was known to say interracial daters should be killed. But, he converted to true Islam and renounced his racism. Malcolm X was the same with his involvement with NOI and then his conversion. Charles Lindeburg was pro Germany and often spoke about keeping gene pool clean, only to renounce those feelings later in life. Ghandi also made racists comments early in life only to renounce them later while struggling to free his country from Europen rule.

How do you view someone who has done wonderful deeds later in life, after being very vocally racists early on? Are they heros? Anti heros? And which should we overlook - their place in history or their racism? Or neither?

 

I think it is ok. If they have changed their view then it is ok to me.

 

if they truly changed I havent a major problem with it, not a fan of Muhammed Ali, though but I do agree if he has changed he deserves his medal

 

Everyone deserves a second chance for their "verbal" indiscretions.
Some people are followers, or small minded or just do not know what the hell they are saying because of lack of education or experience....
Now if they changed their ways and then changed back to old ways, I would be suspect. Since time has past and he has stayed true to his changed views, I say why not? Give that man a metal. He is not just known for his boxing career....

 

Amen, i toldly agree, Hoping that one day David Duke will change his stripes--with all that energy he could use it for good instead of evil

 

Yes, let's just take away what they earned because of what they USED to believe in. Yes, that will finally solve all of the problems with racism. :roll: Everyone knows how times were back then, so, big surprise, if you ask me.

OK, so here we have more examples, but that just proves my point. If you want to condemn one, then you might as well as condemn then ALL. Instead of those people just focusing on Ali, they should do more research on celebrities and public figures they know of, as well as look up to. I find it funny how people criticize these bigots for being bigoted, but in the long run, they actually do a lot of good for their own people back home, and the way they keep the melting pot stirred is what helps to break down racial barriers in several ways. If these people hadn't came around, then how would race-relations be today? Think about that.

Anti-heroes, because of what they stood for as racists, and what they accomplished as heroes. Sure, they were ignorant, but at least they had the gusto to be publically ignorant, unlike so many of their narrow-minded, cowardly, and slow-witted followers, who went along with what they said, just because they could talk a good game or two about it.

You can't overlook any of it anyway. Who they are now may not change who they were back then, but maybe it made them the way they are now, and gave them a greater understanding of how and why they were wrong to be that way before.

History shouldn't be edited just to keep the peace between the 'races' in many parts of society, or for any other reason for the matter. Doing so only enforces half-truths and lies, let alone gives people the false impression of a figure who has a significance to them in their lives.

 

i think the responsibility lies with those of us who are enlightened to educate the ignorant racists. the thing with racism is that it is usually firmly rooted in family sentiment, and has been instilled in people over their entire lives. it is difficult to change fundamental thought patterns and conceptions - it takes time, just as it takes time to instill them. but its great that people who were racists but changed over time have been able to reason,even if they dont respond to it immediately.

 

my heroes are the Lovings who fought the state of virginia in order to have the right to marry as an IR couple, back in 1967

 

tupac was the son of a black panther and often dissed black men who dated white women, but after going to jail and the only friend he had was madonna who apparently visited him and helped to bail him out (according to his bodyguard he also had relations with her after all that) he changed his view and went from a black movement to a human movement.

 

If America is to be consistent then I suppose Ali should be honored.
Since formerly so called "racist" views never stopped people from honoring people like Jefferson, Columbus and other slave owners. It
seems like historically if you're the right color you can get away with a few rapes or a few hundred thousand murders as long as A)Your victims are of color...And B)You also do something noteworthy to put in the history books.

 

I think in general if anyone has unlearned a bad characteristic (including racism), they shouldn't be punished for what they used to think: to change and think the right way is a mark of a good and flexible character and I don't believe in punishing reformed people for the past.

 

So, it's unanimous then. Let's all live and let live.

 

i belive people like Ali and Strom Thurmond should be awarded for what they have acheived in this country and served this country. I like them both, though I dont agree with Ali's politics

 

That's not right, your endorsing mindless nationalism. I don't think it's right this "Well he served this country and that's the main thing" type stuff.

Winston Churchill is certainly a British National Hero, and I have no respect for the man who thuruoughly endorsed the gas-bombing of Iraqis (back when Iraq was called Mesopatamia) by the Royal Airforce, because it's okay to gas bomb 'savages' in pursuit of British interests. How can a man who said such things dare critisize Hitler, who is obviously of the exact same moral cloth? Recently there was a poll for the 'Greatest Britain of the 19th Centuary' or something, and the woman who was spokesperson for the people who nominated Churchil was asked

"But how can you say Churchil was a great man when he was an enthusiatic supporter of the use of chemical warfare to subdue the civilian population of a nation that Britain had invaded and occupied?"

The woman replied something along the lines of

"Well Churchils concern was the people of this country..." blah blah blah. I was outraged. By the same logic Hitler weas a great man and his crimes mean nothing because his primary concern was the people of Germany. Outrageous.

Greatness has nothing to do with giving service to a state, a state is not a human being, it is an organization, often an organization to whome human beings are utterly disposable, that applies to Germany, Britain, the US, Iraq, Azerbaijan... Mandela is a great man not because of what he did for state of South Africa, rather for what he did for the people living under that (at the time, racist and psychopathic) state. I think most hero's are likewise, it is not a state they serve, it is people. If they did something for a flag, they didn't do it for you or your fellow beings. If your passport makes you there friend, they are nationalist bastard that would as soon cluster-bomb youyr ass if you were a foreigner.

Now I see how far I've drifted off-topic, I go now.

 

REAL TALK!

 

Well personally I think hero is a subjective phenomenon. My heros will not necessarily be yours. You have different criteria for yours than I have for mine. If you notice all the heroes that everyone agrees with are fictitious cartoon or comic book characters - all the human failings are stripped off.

For me, ALI is the GREATEST (BOXER) OF ALL TIME. His skills and his views are separate for me. He embodied every thing that a boxer should: a fighting spirit, a talent for marketing and self promotion, and great showmanship. He was just simply a joy to watch. I would consider him my hero just because he was the best at something I'm interested in, and its a joy to witness someone who is so blessed.

But, just because I admire his boxing abilities doesn't mean I'm going to follow his personal and political views. Again, the two are mutually exlusive. You can try to tie them together if you want, but they are not. Imagine how many people would lose Nobel prizes if that were the case.

 

please point out the nationalism? I said both of those great Americans should be honored and since I am an american i believe that. I didnt say they should be honored in the UK, just in their home country.

 

if nationalism is love of my country and some of its leaders then yes that is me!!

i love

Jesus and the apostles

my fellow christians,

my fellow Africans

my fellow Americans

my fellow southerners

my enemies

my Heroes??

jackie Robinson

jack johnson

frederick douglass

Booker T Washington

the black Radical Republicans

Ronald Reagan

George W Bush

Condi Rice

Thomas Sowell

REv Lusk

GK Chesterton

Barry Goldwater

Phyllis Shafly

Colin Powell

the Tuskeegee Airmen

my Grandfathers

my father

Senator Rick santorum;trent lott, Rep JC Watts

John McWhorter

Thomas Sowell

 

Nationalism is only problematic, SwanRider, if you start saying also that other countries are somehow below yours - which is just silly.

I'm not nationalistic myself, I don't much like the UK, but I think that in newly developed countries nationalism can be quite a positive force.

 

Noted, but some of these fictional characters actually have issues. Some of them are orphans, psychopaths, impotent :lol:, etc., it goes on and on.

Food for thought.