Feminism and Misandry in Today's Society...

Fair enough Alicakes

 

You raise an interesting point, because originally when I first saw your posts around women's issues on the forum I was like hey TDK is kind of misogynist, but then as you posted more in depth I realized there was more to it than that at work.

You tend to not hold back and that comes off as abrasive if people take it too personally.

Its easy for people to jump to faulty conclusions, get things easily misinterpreted in an arena like this without knowing someone personally and not acknowledging at least two sides to every point and the rationale behind it.

 

See? Now I ask you...is the "i" really that hard?

Just wondering..seems to confuse some people. A stick with a dot at teh top.

*shrugs*

 

Repped.

 

Look, not one woman in here has said it's easier to be a black man than a white woman. That's NOT what this is about. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges.

I have white privilege over you. I will never know about the problems you have with the police, cabs, etc... I'm not going to talk about the problems you as a black man face because in truth I have NO idea. Just as you guys have no idea what it's like to be a woman and whether it's hard or easy, so please stop it. It's patronising. It's typical male chauvinist behaviour.

Similarly though, you have male privilege over me. You may not benefit from this as much as a white man but you still have it. TDK, you mention that you know that women have to worry about, and experience, sexual assault and harassment and you'll never have to worry about it. Yeah, that's a PRIVILEGE. Because you're a man you will never really have to worry about that. The chances of a female sexually assaulting you are very slim. The chances of me being assaulted by a man are very fucking high. In Scotland 99+% of sex offenders are male. You see what I'm talking about? Women worry about sexual assault etc... because we're women. Because it's generally something men inflict upon women. So you are definitely privileged in that sense. Read about RAPE CULTURE if you want to know more.

I could go on but here are some examples of male privilege. YES, I know some of the privileges won't apply to you because they're mitigated by the fact you're black but you DO still have privilege over me.

I don't know why you're misunderstanding Huntress so much. It's bizarre, really.

This whole thing is a little too Todd Akin for me. I'm tired of men lecturing me about what it is to be a female today. It's fucking annoying. Imagine I suddenly thought I knew more than you about what it is to be black. So, stop teaching me about what it's like to be a woman. I KNOW. Like I said, I'd NEVER come in a racism thread and pretend I knew your struggle. I don't. It would be fucking condescending and it would be exploiting my WHITE PRIVILEGE. Instead I take the time to listen, learn and change.

The world would be a better place if we all tried to understand each other and our struggles a little more.

It goes beyond race and sex. If you're straight, privilege. If you're able-bodied, privilege. If you're upper-middle class, privilege. There are so many power structures in society. We cannot just say 'okay, you have it worse'. I don't remember when it was even about that. It's about equality.

The Cliffnotes version:

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU HAVE IT AS EASY AS A BLACK MAN AND BENEFIT FROM ALL THE PRIVILEGES OF WHITE MEN. WE RECOGNISE THAT BECAUSE WE ARE WHITE WE HAVE PRIVILEGES IN SOCIETY. ALL WE ARE ASKING YOU TO ACCEPT THAT EVEN AS A BLACK MAN YOU DO HAVE SOME MALE PRIVILEGE OVER US.

And if you can't accept that, well that's one of first benefits of male privilege - being oblivious to it. Just because you pull wool over your eyes and say that there is sexual equality doesn't make it true.


FAQ: What is male privilege (good explanation) - http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-is-male-privilege/

White privilege and male privilege - http://www.iub.edu/~tchsotl/part2/McIntosh White Privilege.pdf

Checklist source -
http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf

Difference, Privilege and Power (white and male) -
http://oregon.4h.oregonstate.edu/oregonoutreach/resources/connectingcommunitiesdocs/Shaw.pdf

 

Oh and FYI from before - I CBA replying to it all because it was bullshit and I have better things to be doing than arguing with some patriarchal handmaiden old enough to be my moms - but I wasn't using the dictionary definition of misandry and racism. I think it's much more complicated than that. Obviously, when I said misandry I meant female-to-male sexism. :roll:

Just to show you that white women DO suffer from the wage gap. Because I don't like to hear people lie and say we don't when they haven't taken two fucking seconds to research it. I found this on Wikipedia. It's based on 2005 statistics.



Every single feminist in here has recognised that we have white privilege. Not one woman has denied it. Not one woman has said that you have it easy because you're a dude. But certain aspects of your life ARE easier because you're a man. Certain aspects of my life are easier because I'm white.

What's with all the confusion?

 

Ls you and Huntress both said that misandry didnt exist thats how we got here. You and her both insisted the male power structure didnt allow it but I for one tried to explain we as bm dont enjoy those privleges. Thats my entire point my friend. I acknowledge the struggles women have but there are certain western truths. Ma and woman usually means white

 

You have to understand LS from a black man's perspective that many of these automatically garnered social privileges you quote based on being male are in fact in the domain of white males in Western society and hardly applicable to an average black male in America.

So of course a black person is not going to be able to identify with it as part of the cultural dynamic. Many of the social indicators and barometers clearly and loudly attest to this blinding difference.

I'm a black man from the ghettos of Brooklyn, New York who worked hard to get educated and become a better person in life.

Every step of my life as a young black male I have had to make conscious decisions early on to avoid the pitfalls that are in the way, violence, gangs, drugs, prison in order to avoid becoming a mere social statistic of the prison industrial complex.

So for me I have never felt any profound benefits of male privilege because being black in a Western culture is in fact a great negation of that socially when it comes to access to education, opportunities, fair and impartial justice, fair housing and many other aspects of Western society.

I never got an automatic leg up to go to university, a sense of entitlement because of who my family is, I don't come from a patriarchal background, I was raised by a single parent mother, my father passed away when I was 12, but even before then he lived a separate life.

As a black male, I will on average earn less than a white female in the workforce, if I am accused of assault by a white female she would be given much more credibility in a court of law, even moreso if the jury is primarily white.

A young, white, college aged male stands a better chance of getting off by playing the she was asking for it defense, because he will be seen with more credibility.

No black man would walk into a courtroom and try to make such a claim unless he is nuts.

While a white woman experiences discrimination as a woman in Western society, at the end of the day she is still white and thus still part of the dominant, overarching, cultural framework of society that plays a role in the stereotyping and discrimination of blacks based on race. Even those women who think they are liberal and open minded benefit in ways they can never begin to imagine, it flies under the radar in ways that is hardly imperceptible at times, the obvious and not so obvious.

So those principles you highlight about male privilege are in a realm that is simply out of touch for a black man.

I can acknowledge not having to worry about getting sexually assaulted, but things fall off a steep cliff after that.

When the core of an argument is that privilege is derived through being male, and thus discriminatory towards women, then a challenge has to be raised if there are males who do not benefit from that privilege, one cannot ignore the reality of social conditions and jump to an all encompassing conclusion.

It is for these reasons that I have to raise questions when people attempt to lump white male and black male into one singular male privilege. To be fair you have in a couple of prior posts mention that you primarily speak of white male privilege.

One has to ask who created that system of privilege, who does it benefit. Clearly not black men despite the notion of male privilege

The difference in male privilege in Western society between a black male and white male might as well be the size of Siberia, it is that drastic.

 

LS and GQ- you are both right. I, personally, can identify better with that was LS says, as a white female, but I can also follow you, GQ..

but, how is the situation between a bm and a bw? Same race, but different gender?

On the other hand, I must say, out of experience, a bm in power, is the same as a wm in power..

 

All you need to know about that is the famous line that some black women use about why black men get involved with white women, "because they can't handle a strong black woman"

There is one big factor here in America that forever impacted the black relationship, Chattel slavery, where blacks were property to be bred, bought and sold

it is a talking point to this day with out of wedlock kids, single parent homes and its social impact.

In a way the black family unit once it arrived in America has always been divided because of slavery and social oppression. In such a system you find ways to cope and many black women did just that by any means necessary.

In a way the U.S. system was unique in that unlike other places where blacks were enslaved or socially discriminated against, the various Caribbean Island nations where blacks are often a majority, South Africa where blacks are a majority, Brazil where many blended with the Portuguese and Native Indian populations, in America blacks were and are a minority group governed over by a larger group. It shows how a particular system can have a tremendously negative impact on a group of people.

Today in hiring policies a business can cover two requirements (gender and race) with one person, a black female and voila quota fulfilled.

As a matter of fact many young black women are doing well with getting more opportunities to attend university and in getting hired at rates that exceed those of young black males who are busy filling up the prison system that I spoke of in my prior post, the Prison Industrial Complex of America.

 

Historically, socioeconomic system was organized to favour women.Take for example city life and how day care facilities are organized in terms of accessibility not to favour women. Could we imagine a world where day care was part of the workplace?

I think human conception of the environment and its organization of space and function did not historically favour women. Gradually, as we are getting smarter, we are starting to see need for balance, hence the feminism that has become the advocacy channel for feminine values in modern life.

That said, I suspect there exists strains of rabid feminism that seeks to dismantle societal structures in a way that causes psychological and social dislocation for men. This is experienced in the school environment where males are gradually being outperformed by women because the social and economic environment is increasingly not male friendly, I mean the environment does not support optimum actualization of male potentials.

I think in everything one needs to be able to strike a balance. Systems that encourage mutual understanding needs to be developed than a radicalised approach that affects and infects the male psyche.

I'm hoping this makes sense.

 

Ok, I understand this as the american version to see the female and male role.
I've had never problems with men, I'v never felt disadvantaged, but I was never employeed or in a court case of any sexual harrassment. But I know, how it feels, when men come with a suffisant smile and think they are better than any woman- just because they are men. And I know that bosses try to sell their secretaries as prostitutes, just to make a good deal. And it makes me furious, even in our western civilized world, when I have to be a witness of such a scenario. It also makes me cry, when I have to see that men rape women to show their power and to intimidate all others. But I am dealing different, because I can, because I don't have kids I am responsible for. I can take my risk and I can act like a man, too.

Out of my perspective, I can just say that all over the world, men try to keep women deeper than they are themselves. There is a fight going on between the genders, no doubt about it. .


But in general, I can say that I don't see any difference in wm and bm,(just look to Africa,Pakistan, Thailand or Mumbai) Muslim or Hindus or Catholics, as I've said before, it's just a question of money, power,religion and law .

But as I've said before, I understand both of you.

 

This is why in all of my counterpoints to LS and DB I made sure to limit the scope to black males in Western society, primarily America in my arena.

When it comes to money, power, the law, etc, one has to recognize who that caters to in Western cultures. Black males are not the architects nor benefactors of that on average. If that was the case then the incarceration rate, poverty rate, mortality rate from gun violence, etc would not be so astronomical for blacks in America.

Black men do not represent the majority in these Western societies, unlike the case in the countries of Africa.

They therefore do not wield the same level of social and political influence and decision making roles that shape Western society through its social policies.

I primarily kept my responses to Western society because that was the main focus of male privilege impacting women.

The case is certainly different in Africa but Africa is a majority black continent with black policy and decision makers in charge, not the case in Western nations where blacks are a minority in representation.

A perfect example Barack Obama is in the White House, but his policies and initiatives are constantly stalled in the U.S. Congress and who are the faces of those in Congress, they are majority white males as well as white female elected representatives who come from the constituency of the majority white population.

They are the one's that are in the ultimate position to shape social policies through their actions.

Black politicians in America cannot enact policies on their own that shape American society without consent and support of the majority white politicians in Congress.

When it comes to other parts of the world and the deplorable treatment of women I have even taken the time to create a thread on that exemplifying the utter disgust and contempt with which I feel for such intolerable abuses inflicted on women.

http://whitewomenblackmen.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22339

 

One thing you forgot to mention was how black men are treated in court when it comes to shit like child support. It ain't pretty and a lot of times, black men will get done straight DIRTY. Absolutely FILTHY ASS DIRTY.

 

Interesting read, all 26 pages of them thats all i can say

 

All I will say about where this topic went is

Why do some people think that discrimination against women and discrimination against bm are mutually exclusive - like its some sort of competition

Come to think of it; we have been here before.

 

FG there is an overwhelming social context to these matters that cannot be simply dismissed, if one is to think critically. They don't happen in a vacuum void of influences. That is why I feel so strongly about this.

Certainly there are many racist white women and misogynistic black men in Western society, however one cannot paint a broad stroke or throw every one into the pot for the sake of reaching a particular conclusion based on gender or race, yet ignoring the all important factor of context.

When we start to speak in an overarching social context about privilege, as a black male in America I am not the one who stands to benefit from this male privilege that falls under the umbrella of "White male privilege" when that very system of white male privilege was created to the ultimate detriment and oppression of blacks every step of the way in our history in America.

What privilege did a black male get when he walked into a courtroom of an all white jury and was summarily convicted while a white male could walk into that same courtroom and hastily walk free for killing a savage, negro, buck.

Blacks were not part of any net positive effect of that privilege equation from the earliest point of American history to this very day.

In America the black experience is completely different from the white experience. History, social policies such as education, job opportunities, fair judicial system, social living conditions and everyday experience, family structures, being devoid of basic civil rights and disenfranchised for most of America's history attests to that. What privilege lies in these appalling things.

As I like to point out blacks were enslaved and lived under Jim Crow Laws in America far longer than they have been legally recognized as equal citizens under the laws with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964.

One has to be careful or at least objective, not subjective with any broad reaching application of privilege, void of context in its utilization.

Would it be thoroughly fair for me to say that when it comes to "white privilege and racism" in Western society, I see no difference between a white male and white female because they both were historically and are today the ultimate beneficiaries from that system of privilege, because of skin color, even though the concepts and policies were created by powerful white males to oppress blacks, white women still benefit to this day from its creation.

Therefore white women are just as accountable as white men, by virtue of being white, for the system of slavery, systematic exploitation and discrimination and its negative social effects on blacks, right.

See how overarching that view is if I remove any context to it.

Do I simply ignore that white women did not have the right to vote, do I ignore that white women were not part of the U.S. Congress and state legislatures that passed discriminatory laws.

Do I just say they are white and lived with white men and benefited, therefore they are just as accountable for such policies of privilege.

Its easy for people to say well its not a competition, but that is not what lies at the heart of the point and so easily attempt to be dismissed. That is a red herring assertion and overlooks what lies at the heart of the matter.

The bottom line is we are all part of a social structure with a history and agenda through policies that have an impact on all of us and as a black male in America, when I know there is a huge divide between the privilege of a white male and black male, I cannot accept accountability for a system that does not cater to nor stand to benefit blacks. Black men and black women were not part of the relevant equation of white privilege nor male privilege that shaped the society we see today.

If one is not capable of applying social context to their arguments then it overlooks a lot of pertinent issues that alter that argument.

Maybe it is a cultural divide, maybe it is willfully done, maybe it is blind perspective.

How can one attempt to think critically and in depth and yet overlook so many poignant societal issues around such a matter. Its not a matter of competition but rather consideration.

Its why personally I am a stern stickler for the principles of equality irrespective of gender or race, while I still fully recognize that our society doesn't often work that way.

And in the context of this thread for those of you ladies who are quick to toss around terms such as male chauvinism on this forum, it is no less ignorant than me asserting that one of you is a bigot if you cannot identify with these things that I repeatedly speak of when it comes to how privilege is viewed in Western society from a black person's viewpoint in America or I chose to call you by an offensive female terminology because of a different point of view. Something that I would never do because it is not in my nature.

I assume we are all educated folks here who can make our points respectfully without throwing around baseless accusatory conclusions and juvenile name calling if one's opinion differs.

Critiquing someone's arguments does not have to include outlandish terms for shock value. A point can be made by stating your views in a critical manner that speaks for itself.

No need to resort to coarse and disingenuous language in a discussion of educated individuals, that doesn't make one's argument stronger by doing that, but rather weakens the efficacy of it.

 

GQ laying it on thick

Might learn something

 

LOL, I would just hope that it can challenge people to see through the clouds of it all that its not simply a matter of gender or race equaling end result.

You man = oppressor of women

You white person = oppressor of blacks

For the sake of Western society in which we live, there is an entire social construct that have shaped these things, some points are applicable while others are not depending on one's gender and skin color.

I challenge anyone to say the tenets of white male privilege is of a positive benefit to a black male in America, that would be the easiest argument for me to shred to pieces.

How could I as a black man in America benefit from male privilege when the system was not designed by blacks and for blacks but rather instead to deliberately oppress blacks as people lesser than, we see this in our everyday lives historically and today. Every social index and statistics shows this time and time again.

On the contrary, if anyone stands to benefit from that historical white male privilege today in Western society it is in fact white females. Think about it.

By virtue of fighting for and trying to achieve the very same rights as white males and the access to those privileges long denied to them by virtue of being women, despite the fact they are white.

When those privileges are attained, at the end of the day they are still white and thus still part of the dominant culture that denies access to education, employment opportunities through discrimination of blacks. Is that mentality going to change just because she is a woman. Not likely.

A white woman who attains power and influence en par with a white male in power is still part of the dominant society, she is not going to say lets do what is best for blacks en masse. What incentive is there for her to do that. It probably doesn't even enter her train of thought.

It is for these reasons I can take zero credit for what is "white male privilege" in Western society as a black man when I reap none of the benefits.

This is an issue of white males and white females, fighting to achieve in the case of the women and maintain in the case of the men that privilege in Western society. Note I specified in Western society. What happens in Africa and other parts of the world is obviously going to be different.

 

I'm just trying to be like you when I grow up.

LMAO

I'm as guilty of that as the next man, but I try to keep an open mind. But I recognize that sometimes someone will just 'get your goat' and it's just impossible after that point. But this is the last place I would come to argue. Hell, I do that for a living, so I'm not looking for that to dominate my free time as well, lol.

But he's dropping science (Damn, I just dated myself, lol)!