It's crap. If a woman is fertile during a rape and the sperm mets the egg...she will conceive. The resulting stress and trauma of being raped might cause a miscarriage, which in that case would be nothing but a blessing..but if she in her fertile time...she can get pregnant. It sound superstitious to me. Like lying under a full moon will enhance chances at a girl...but you would think we have enough science to prove it the crap it is. Just a way to justify making abortion illegal and blaming the woman should she turn up pregnant after rape.
Who cares what she said. She's long gone and since you failed to realize that she is personally against abortions, but wouldn't force her own viewpoints onto others. If you're stuck in the past, then do wallow in your benign ignorance. Just don't bring the rest of us down if you choose to live in the past. Almost as if you masturbate to photos of her, begging her to "kill your seeds."
Why is eugenics being brought into this? Eugenics was disproven DECADES AGO. Get over it. Whatever the thought process was back then, it's NOT the thought process now. It's 2012, not 1912. Eugenics is long, long dead.
You should say that particular movement is dead. The issue does come up around things like genetic engineering and such, and we never know if pseudo or bad scientific ideas might become popular again. I agree, that eugenics is not really germane to the modern day abortion debate. The only corollary to this issue that even sounds remotely close to eugenics is when crime stats are brought up.
Hmmm, You do realize I know that, right? Im just saying that that thought is eerily similar to way back in the Salem times.. "oh, your pregnant, well, then, you must not have been legitimately raped" "oh, you didn't drown, well, then, you must be a witch". Cuhrazy
Right. I get that you get that and in my own wonky way was agreeing with your statement. That really was more for dj since his flawed view point is totally missed as being flawed by him. It's thinking like this that sets up the stage and players for the witch hunt for women's rights over her own body and also would seek to make her wholly accountable for the whole rape and insemination by a perp who would find little blame since the woman didn't "shut that process down" after the rape. I'm on your side FG. :smt060
As a child who experienced abuse.. I look at it this way: When I was young I could not have ever understood it had it been explained to me. I was a child and had no point of reference. I also had parents who were to involved in their own stuff to keep me safe from predators. What I did have though we're the people who, while they couldn't protect me, we're mothers-in-waiting in a way. I know that given the amount of hell I had to go through and the dark trek up and out of what I affectionately call the abyss was not in vain. I don't take comfort in salvation through the blood of another (for only I can truly save myself if I work hard enough at it) I also know that in those moments when I was battling the demons of past abuse, and when it had brought me to my knees, that I was not truly alone. I have seen the higher wisdom of something greater than myself at work in my life countless times. You can call that whatever you wish..but when I was help bent on all the destruction and pain I could muster bc I was acting out that pain..that force worked in and through my life to keep my disastrous decisions a little less all encompassing. So I don't actually believe that children are left totally alone even in the worst of situations. I know, for example, that I was spared what probably would have been two brutal rapes because I listened to a voice larger than myself that gave me warning. Whatever it was, kept me as protected as it could when the adults in my life failed me. One of these incidents happened when I was 8. But perhaps god shows his face in the random kindness of strangers who took me in when I was lost with no one to look to for help. And perhaps, god too shows his face, in the time of need for woman who have been raped and have to make a heart wrenching decision about how to go on with their life, in the support offered by places like planned parenthood. I'm just saying.
Ali, thank you for a thoughtful and respectful albeit painful response. I know it's neither easy nor pleasant re-visiting the past when you have been the victim of abuse. While it won't negate an ounce of suffering, I'm sorry that you received anything but love, kindness, compassion and protection from the adults in your life. My heart goes out to you, truly. I spent more than half an hour crafting a response to you which I promptly lost. It was carefully and prayerfully written. And probably way to verbose. But it was heartfelt and I wish I hadn't lost it. I will summarize as best I can. While I don't understand all of God's ways, I do understand from my own prayerful reading of the Bible and the teachings of others more learned than myself, that God is love. He doesn't just love, or give love - He IS love. But his idea of good and our idea of good is vastly different at times. Because we don't see the big picture. The story of Joseph is an example. He was left for dead by brothers who were jealous of him. Sold into slavery, accused wrongly by Potiphar's wife and imprisoned. But he never lost faith in God's goodness and God raised him up to be a very powerful figure in Egypt. He had an opportunity to exact revenge on the brothers who mistreated him (by letting them starve during a famine), but he chose to forgive. Why? In his words "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." (Genesis 50:20) Don't misunderstand me in this - I'm not saying that God meant for you to be abused. But he allowed it for reasons maybe only known to him, at this point, and he can use it to bring about good. I do believe that God was with you, Ali. He gave you strength to endure. He gave you an awareness of his presence. He put others in your life, strangers as you mentioned, to demonstrate his love to you in the face of evil. And he offers healing, not just for your sake, but for the sake of others' lives you may touch because of what you went through. You survived, Ali. The abuse, horrible as it was, is part of your story. It has helped to shape you and make you the person you are. Another person may not be able to go past that pain and survive. God does allow us to endure sufferering because he will then use us to bring healing to someone else. To those who loved and do love Him, Jesus' death was not "good." He was the only righteous man, the only perfect created being who had no sin of His own. Yet He was crucified. God's only Son. Why? For us. For you. For me. It didn't look, sound or feel like a good plan. But history tells us, God had a plan. We don't understand God's idea of good. But if we understand his character, we can trust that he has a plan. I was faced with the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy when I was 17. And, even as a Christian, my first thought was abortion. Shame and fear drove me to that. Thankfully, I wasn't pregnant and didn't have to make that decision. I'm glad I didn't. I have read countless stories of women who chose to abort who regretted the decision. I do take a stand against abortion, even when the child has been conceived in a violent manner such as rape. To me, if a child has been knit together in his/her mother's womb by the Creator, then it's more than just a woman and her uterus. It's a life and that life is not a mistake to God. He can and does bring good out of evil, blessing out of pain and suffering. Having said that, I won't presume to tell another woman what she should do. She has to make and live with that decision. I don't judge a woman who has had or is considering an abortion. If she is considering, I can only encourage her to look at other options. Because I believe in a God who can bring... Beauty from ashes.
The Jesus mythos also doesn't make any sense. What kind of Creator makes unborn children responsible for something people did years before they were even born and then requires his only son (a part I never got since we're all suppose to be God's children not just one person) to die for said sins. It just ties into some fear based control system designed to make the less intelligent amongst us into good little boys and girls. Not trying to attack you on this one Ches just reminds me of the things that always annoyed me about organized religion growing up. This concept that people are flawed and can only seek redemption through a creator who is responsible for everything good in our lives but never blamed for any of the bad. Someone who gives us free will only to punish us when we don't make the "right" choices. It makes you wonder if God only wants us to choose option A then why create option B? Just seems like a cruel joke. In all your years as a Christian didn't you ever ask these same questions?
Absolutely. I'm going through my own crisis of faith right now, truth be told. But this is when I rely on past experiences with God when I needed understanding and he gave it, even though he is not now. Or I'm not receiving it. It's also when I rely on the testimonies of others who have experienced God in authentic ways.
Ches: Thank u for your response. It's funny you should mention Joseph as that is one of they favorite biblical stories. Long ago before it ceased to make sense to me I too studied the bible and followed a christian life. The Father/son/death/resurrection mythos is far older than the bible and has its underpinnings in such heathen cultures as Sumerian and Babylonian culture who were seen as heathen religions to the Hebrews because they were Mother centric as opposed to patriarchal. That is for TDK mostly. And it's not something I wish to debate. That is not my own opinion but is founded on science of archeology of which I'm not but of which is a proven and bonefide science. The biggest difference between the mythos in this case was that hope and salvation became the providence of some outside force while personal salvation and responsibility was lessened if not abolished all together. One can't free themselves if they done know the true nature of their imprisonment. Do I mean to say that Christianity doesn't work? No. It works for many people. It is (IMO) as it is practiced STILL and outdated and stagnant belief that has lost its true meaning and purpose. Plus it's whole basis is borrowed from and older premises with the lovely caveat of having a "power over" purpose added into its clause by those who seek to control its masses. That I will not debate either as it is historical fact that the very early church changed a great many things to the original teaching of yeshua which was self liberation through compassion and awareness (akin to Buddhism) and they persecuted and stomped out the Gnostics which were up to that point..the true followers of Christ and his message of liberation from the prison of the confused mind. That is as much as I will cover right now, though I have much to say about the theory of God is Love. Which I don't denounce. I use different terms to arrive at the same conclusion (almost). Maybe some day if I'm in the right mood I'll write about that as well.
I think I've read parts of it at times in my life. It seem to remember being not impressed although right this minute I can't remember why.
Does not follow... Here are the salient pieces of information w.r.t. our dialogue. A) The founder of PP was pro white, pro eugenics, anti-poor and anti minority B) you say so what that was the past doesn't matter now. OK segregation was in the past and doesn't matter now does it?(lol) C) You say I live in the past (sure thing budday) D) I have maintained my perspective and cannot be moved from it no matter what type of verbal gymnastics you attempt to perform. E) My posts were well constructed and contained words directly from the horses mouth , while most of the counter points were personal attacks against me and non sequitur tripe.
The United States was founded by slave holders. Henry Ford was a virulent anti-Semite and supporter of the Nazi regime. Prior to the 1950s Harvard undergrad didn't accept women because they were considered intellectually inferior to men. There was a time when the majority of African Americans were affiliated with the Republican Party. History isn't destiny. he origins of Planned Parenthood don't speak to the current reality of the organization. Ms. Sanger was a bit of a whack job, but her belief that all families and childbirths should be a part of a greater 'plan' and not accidental was IMO the right idea. Planned Parenthood does more good for the health of poor and underprivileged women than almost any organization in the country.
Of course she was a whack job. I have nothing against preventing unwanted pregnancies through education, contraception...yadda yadda whathaveyou. I do have an issued with the vile process of forcibly extracting and destroying a young human life. I have an even bigger problem with the pro abortion lobby in its sorry attempt to dehumanize what is clearly a human being to help justify this practice to themselves and to the public at large. Once again. I support a woman's right to choose but the practice of abortion it self is tantamount to killing in my eyes. I am not surprised some people have lashed out at me over this sentiment.
Here's my take on abortion; a woman finds out she's missed her period and within a few days takes a pregnancy test that comes up positive. Within the next week to a month is when she should decide whether or not to abort her pregnancy. A four week old whatever in my mind is mostly a fertilized egg and not a human being.:smt031
