what do white women love about black men?

This post is quite disarming and I understand better why you feel as you do as a result. It's unfortunate, but I agree that most people seem to live by "situational ethics". Other people only have importance as long as it doesn't mean that they have to suffer any "inconvenience" in their lives. People talk about being Christians, and yet do unto others without any thought of the ramifications, only that they suffer no "harm". So, when you're betrayed at every turn, by friends and people in love relationships, I understand the tendency to retreat to the safety of someone who you know will have your best interest at heart, in your case your Mom. I wish you well and I hope that in time, you may meet someone who's open enough, special enough and caring enough that the two of you can have what you ultimately seek in a relationship. Good luck my friend.

 

Your comment is very much appreciated and thoughtfully returned my friend.

 

But that's the thing, that's primarily established within a caucasian society.
Because within a western viewpoint when it comes to family, the husband/wife and kids are the nucleus, with brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers are consider extension of the family but no longer the major part.
But among other cultures such as mexicans and japanese, that is far from the
case. So something along the lines of allowing your family (brother, mother, etc) is essentially second nature and is considered normal. It would be a different story if it was just some friend or what have you, but family is consider much different.

And again, it's those boundaries that is established within caucasian society. (And yes, italian is considered caucasian, just like greek.) To depend upon others is considered a sign of weakness within caucasian culture. Again, caucasian culture values independence and self reliance, but again, it has nothing to do with growing up. I had japanese friends who all the time when they came home from work would have their moms come by and give them groceries, and vice versa. In latin and asian based cultures, they are more group orientated, so they focus less on taking care of themselves and more on taking care of one another. There has actually been tons of documentation
expressing the clear difference between white culture and others if you want to check it online. But even co-dependent is considered rather normal in other cultures and has nothing to do with growing up, but merely a different way of viewing things.

Um, definitely not. Japan divorce rate for example is much lower than america, (even though it's on the rise, with a lot of people blaming it on the more western influence.) The divorce rate in japan for example is only 22%, with america it's 53%. So there is definitely not an increase in tension per say, otherwise they would have a much higher set in divorce rate. It can however, create tension when you have someone of different beliefs such as yourself.
You seem to value independence greatly, and thus to be expose to someone whose more family-orientated and co-dependent will definitely create a hassle. But if the person whose co-dependent finds someone whose either open minded enough to accept his close relationship with his family, or co-dependent themselves, than it doesn't create any issue.


Ultimately, what you have came across is primarily a cultural boundary. There will be many more such as this that you will be exposed to if you decide to further pursue IR, now that doesn't mean that all black men, asian men, or what have you are entirely family orientated and co-dependent with their siblings, mother, or what have you, but it would be best to prepare yourself
just in case. Ultimately you'll just drop the guy most likely anyway, the only thing I'm saying that it doesn't have to do with growing up, but cultural differences.

 

Haha no problem, travelling around the world really open my eyes to the differences in different cultures so it help me to realize even how different we are. Even people in just america. We say we are all americans, but we are really different as well.

 

We can agree to disagree. I've traveled all over the world as well, and I see certain things as cultural, and certain things as not being able to handle life without mommy and daddy. There's a certain level of respect in relationships, and If my future mother in law and I didn't get along, and it was decided that she would move in....thats a case when you put your wife first. I'm sorry. There's no compromising on that. If I say "no", then it's no, or you can call mom and get her a hotel and a number for a good divorce lawyer, because if you're not including your spouse in that kind of conversation, what else arent you bothering to include them in?

I do value independence immensely. I think that it's a must if you plan to enter into any kind of adult relationship. I would be pissed if my parents used an emergency key to come into my home and fill the fridge, for instance. I view it as them thinking of me as a child whos incapable of taking care of herself. I know lots of people of varying cultural backgrounds who feel that way, too. Maybe it's common for women, at least my age, who don't seem to have much tolerance for it.

As for Japan, the last I read was that divorces were on the rise because women were getting more rights. They were finally able to get out of bad marriages without it being considered a black mark on the family. That sounds just fine to me.

 

Which is warped considering based on what you've said, your father should be in jail and your mom should be in domestic violence therapy, and thats the litmus test for the super amazing awesome put all of them before my wife familial relationships on which you rest your laurels.

Have you considered counseling as well? All seriousness, do you really not see how much damage has been done to you and how warped your thoughts are on relationships as a result? You're a good person, and you mean well, but if you really want to start a family based on that foundation, there's a problem there.

 

I have a decidedly different take on this issue. During the time when the U.S. was primarily an agrarian society, family was more valued, among all races, as everyone was needed to pitch in take care of the family farm. With the onset of the industrial revolution, families started to separate and become more independent because they needed to make a living to support themselves and their future families.

I recognize the values of self-reliance and independence as American traits, not restricted to any one race. But, I'd further argue that historically African Americans were forced to be independent and grow up quickly because families didn't have the means to support the family. So, it was necessary for everyone to work, as soon as they could. Children often didn't finish even grade school because they had to go out and seek jobs, any jobs, to earn a bit of money that was pooled together for the family. Families stayed together because they had no other choice, based purely on economic reasons. So, you often had multiple generations living together, the grandparents, parents and children.

As the economic fortunes increased for everyone of every race, families became significantly more fragmented. Children graduated from High School and those who could attend college did, often in different cities. Children who elected not to continue their education looked toward factory employment as the jobs of choice. The big boom in the Automotive and Steel industries resulted in a great migration of people to the Midwest to take advantage of the higher paying factory jobs in those industries and more young people left home seeing this as the opportunity for them to have a a bit of financial freedom.

Throughout the years, up until the 90's, this trend continued and young people of all races, left the nest upon graduation. During this time, though the economy improved, African Americans always lagged in employment and economic advancement. The one message that was ALWAYS clear in the Black home was that you needed to be self-reliant, independent and educated. You were NEVER coddled because your parents understood that you'd enter a world of prejudice that wasn't able to coddle you, and so you were taught to be resilient and tough against the realities of the problems you'd face. If you left home, you left, period, you were on your own. Your parents didn't have the finances to support two households, theirs and yours. You bought your own food, always, you paid your bills and washed your own clothes. You were taught to stand on your own two feet. It didn't mean that if you stumped your toe, they wouldn't help you, if they could, but you were expected to get back up and make it in the world as a man, period. So, yes, in was very much about growing up.

For the first time in American history, parents have been fortunate enough to have sufficient resources to "help" their children. I think, partly, because of the difficult times that they faced, parents have been less insistent on forcing children to grow up and assume responsibility at the same age when they themselves were out working, creating families and forging their way in the world. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, because I see a group of young people, dependent on their parents and filled with expectencies. It's epidemic within all communities, White and Black and all other ethnicities. Children think that their parents have a duty to help them, buy them cars, trucks, gaming equipment, while the children wile away their time with the luxury of "trying to decide" what they want to be when they grow up. As a result, there's much less respect for the value of things and people. If you never have to work for something, you certainly don't respect it as much. If you don't get what you want, what the heck, just take it from someone less fortunate.

The media doesn't help with marketing that tells young people that they should have the best, the nicest cars, the most beautiful women or handsome men, and it should be theirs now. This is far different than the message that their parents and grandparents received, that you had to wait, wait for what you wanted until you could afford it, until you worked for it, until you completed your education, on and on..

Ultimately, self-reliance and independence as more important than they ever were in this country. There're many more people competing for fewer resources and without those traits, people will get lost in the mix. But, what I see is far fewer younger people actually growing up, or being made to grow up, and forced to taste reality for what it is.

Does it mean that EVERY young person is lazy and unwilling to step up to the challenge, no. Does it mean that families haven't fractured creating single mother households where children have become uncomfortably close to mothers, no. Is it wrong that these situations occur? I guess that depends on how it affects the dynamics of the relationships that those young people enter in life. If it paralyzes them, disallows them from developing normal connections to families that they create, then I'd say, IMO, yes. Otherwise, they must deal with the issues in their lives and find a way toward healthy relationships. For some it'll happen sooner, and for others it may be a life long search.

That's my two cents, not fatherly advice, not pontification, but an understanding of history in this country, discussions with parents, friends and my own observations. If the shoe doesn't fit, so be it....

 

anyone got the cliffnotes for this thread?

 

Let's see, how about, I don't agree, I think that self-reliance and independence have always been an important part of American culture, and one embraced by African Americans out of economic necessity. I believe that increased economic well being and guilt for not wanting their kids to experience as tough a life, has lead a lot of parents not to force their kids to grow up as they were forced to grow up.

Better?

 

Indeed, we will have to agree to disagree. In the end, you will only judge how you view things to be seen as. Nothing will change your mind regarding that aspect. But you mention a certain point as that I which to elaborate on. The divorce issue, and that's very likely why a lot of individuals placed family first. If things goes wrong, you can literally get divorce, but you can't divorce your family. Your family, even more than your spouse, will technically always be there, and this mindset is possibly why partially family plays just as much of a important role in a person life in a varied of cultures as a wife. As again, as stated before, your opinion is clearly illustrating about a nucleus, that your spouse and you are the center and that your mother in law or who ever are distant part of the family, but others cultures essentially don't see it that way.

Well I can definitely tell that for one that situation regarding mothers bringing over food is not looked down upon in neither Japan or Mexico, as I've lived in Japan for a few years and basically live in mexico lol. So there is definitely a bit of cultural differences to this situation whether you wish to admit it or not. That's not to say that there aren't those who think otherwise. After all, there is even quite a few black republicans. It still doesn't change the fact that the majority of black people are democratic, and it still doesn't change the fact that countries such have different cultural viewpoints than yours. I can't imagine if you were to date someone from mongolian, and see for the first time like a 35 year old man drinking the breast of his mom because that's consider normal in their culture.


As for Japan raising divorce rates.

In any case, the point still stands that areas with stronger family bonds and ties towards mothers, fathers and siblings and such like Mexico and Japan have relatively low divorce rates and problems. Mexico has an extremely low divorce rate for example.

Here is a link on divorces in the world.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate

As you can see, a lot of countries that have higher value on family and co-dependency and group orientated viewpoints have relatively low divorce rates, while places where independence is highly viewed upon like America,
Uk, Denmark and etc are extremely high on the list.

 

im just stirring the shit pot, dont mind me

i see what you're doing tho. I was raised like that, not to rely on anyone but myself. It's definitely made me stronger in life, as people enter and exit your life at any given notice. Losing a parent at a young age provides you with a perfect situation, to demonstrate your ability to carry on and continue your life.

 

But a key aspect you are talking about is self reliance and such "in this country." But that's because this country is arguably by far the country that places the biggest value on self independence in perhaps the entire world. So of course, if the entire culture is set to place a major value on self independence, to raise your kids in a more group orientated viewpoint would be counter productive because no one would share that viewpoint with you. So while you would be out helping say your brothers and sisters and such, taking care of them, getting their groceries and such that's normally seen in more group-orientated cultures like Japan, because of how strong environmental pressure highlighting independence may be, they may not share the same viewpoint and leave you hanging, or the same between a mom and son, with a mom wanting to establish a more group orientated co-dependent mindset but the son wanting to be more independent and do his own thing. There by the mother bending over backwards for their son but the son mostly doing nothing in return.

The aspect about self independence that people keep forgetting is that everyone is different. Self independence is a form of conformity to have everybody work a certain way. But just like you have those from shy to outgoing, extroverted to introverted, talkative to near mute, you have individuals of varied different strengths. You definitely have people who
can take on the entire world, but you also have individuals with medium
amount of strength who needs a decent amount of help, and than
you have those with very little amount of strength who require a lot of
help. These individuals can't just magically become independent and strong,
a lot of them just crash and burn, hence why kids are committing suicide
at even higher rates as bullying continues to rise in america.

And thus, you have a major problem. Now that's not to say that group-orientated society would fix the entire problem, no, because there is problems
that also exist with more group orientated society as well. But to place the solution on independence appears incorrect as other countries and cultures
who are MUCH more group orientated than we are such as Japan has gotten
along quite well with being more co-dependent among one another. And none
of the problems you describe fits the bill in Japan. Thus, the issue definitely
doesn't lie with co-dependence.

I also disagree regarding certain aspects that you describe. It is the parents duty to take care of their children. But a large part of what you describe regarding games, cars and such is mostly due to the fact that we are a country that's based on receiving, and not giving. For example, how often on a mom's birthday, does the dad takes to kids to all pick out certain gifts for their mom? Very few if any times. From young, we are a culture that has been based on receiving, with no giving being shown. Thus it makes perfect sense when they get older for them to expect items without giving gifts in return. Because they have been taught only to receive items instead of giving.

 

And this is why white women love black men.

 

If you truly believe this response to be an accurate assessment that expalins why the current generation has developed a sense of expectency. I'm afraid that our perspectives are so diametrically opposed as to make any dialogue impossible. But, I appreciate your response.

Edit to add: Since we live in the U.S., a discussion about cultures in other countries isn't germane to this issue...I'm similarly unconvinced that this country has to abandon a course of conduct and priority on reliance and independence, when this has produced the kinds of gains for its citizenry, and for what reason, because of a sudden trend toward dependency.

 

Well that's relatively simple, since our entire society is based on ourselves and what we want, what we desire, our own personal impulses, without care for others, than the current generation wouldn't give a hoot about how much time and effort was perform from our parents so little jimmy can get that xbox 360. Now, more than ever, we are a society that focuses entirely on ourselves, with little repercussion or care for our fellow man. And this isn't just seen within our "current generation." Take a look at our health care bill, a large reason why it failed is due to our own independent viewpoint that everyone needs to take care themselves, and damn those that can't such as the 20% who is below the poor line.

So you can't really just place it on the current generation. Our entire American premise is based on independence and concern for only our own well being.

The only difference is back than, if you want something, you had to get it yourself, now if you want something, your parents may buy it for you, but the
still premise of wanting things for oneself and damn the consequences such as screwing over your fellow man is still the same. The only difference is that now, with the current generation, they have part of the co-dependent aspect of receiving items such as in other cultures, but is missing a key area of giving and concern for others that are in other cultures. Hence there sense of entitlement, if they had the full co-dependent idea set seen in other cultures,
than their empathy would be much greater and they would understand the amount time and effort given from their parents for them to receive that new car, and would essentially treasure it. Essentially it's about empathy, and studies show that the more independent you are, the less empathy and concern you have for others, and the more you view things through only your own perspective. And such since the kids themselves only care about themselves, and not about the time and effort their mom and dad work for them to get the items that they have, you have the sense of entitlement.

 

Yeah because you're one to talk DB. I want you to show me a family without some type of issues. You don't pass that sage wisdom onto any of the other posters who've been through far worst. Posters who have been raped, beaten, shot, abused not only by family but significant others and I don't see them being directed to counseling. Why because they don't see life the way I do? My closeness with family not just my my mom has far moe to do with being a first generation immigrant family, if you notice throughout history and the world immigrants normally cling to their families. There was a time when Italians first came to this country where the families never lived more than a mile apart from each other.

If you want to carry around the I can do it all by myself chip on your shoulder so be it but don't keep trying to impose your thinking on me femnist. Guess its only equally rights for women huh.

Also keep in mind my views on relationships has far more to do with everyday life.I'm suppose to bank on something that fails more than half the time? Seriously?

 

I have to spread the love before I rep you again, but this post was spot-on, Swirl.

 

Citation, please? This is not my experience; in fact my experience of the world tells me something quite different. I'd be interested in the studies you're referencing.