tyler perry and spike lee drama

#1 When it comes to media representation, dont compare black folk's history in this country to any other groups. Especially whites. Its a simple mater of disproportion.

#2. You created a strawman argument. No one said its Tyler's fault. Those of us who know where we came from(a rarity it seems) simply want to see us move forward. If we're gonna worship those with money and call them successful on that fact alone, dont be surprised when those with artistic integrity and consideration of their lineage dont kiss their ass.

Black film makers, producers and actors already know Tyler's old formula works. Granted Tyler is a very talented & smart businessman but its MUCH harder to be a successful artist in this country while promoting black folks in a intelligent, progressive and more importantly diverse light.

And to clarify, "meet the browns" aside, I dont think Tyler's work is that bad. The reason Tyler is the focus of discussion is because he has the control over his projects and financing to experiment with so much more at this point. Some people simply want to see "black movies" branch out to more than Stepin Fetchit sitcoms and family reunion/thanksgiving/cookout movies. The counter argument to that is, well why dont those film makers who dont like Tyler's work, make their own. Well the man in the title of this thread has. Despite being called financially unsuccessful in comparison to Tyler for doing so.

 

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about who suffered more..I'm just pointing out that some italians feel the same kind of embarrassed for their race emotion with Jersey Shore that some blacks feel with Tyler Perry projects. And the question still stands when you see shows that some italians have protested (the sopranos, jersey shore) as a non italian looking at it do you think its a bad representation and makes them all look bad?

this is the same argument against gangster rap..too much focus on the negative...the violent /misogynistic themes are detrimental to the black community yet its been very popular for the last 20 years. No one asked dr. dre or Death Row label to develop more socially conscious/less violent rap music when they produced the chronic and those that did were looked at like they were crazy.

The only way there's going to be more diversity in black cinema and tv is if more black people develop more stories. Spotlighting Tyler Perry doesn't change anything and comes off as player hating.

and what exactly is coonish and stereotypical about meet the browns as opposed to it just being a bad sitcom?

 

You miss the point entirely. Its a bad comparison because the argument is a matter of disproportionate examples of negative representation , not "who suffered more"

Agreed for the most part.

I understand your Death Row example but they were kids brought up in the hood. Dre was initially a beat maker selling tapes out of his trunk. Theres more accountability expected from seasoned adults who are true players in the film/tv industry.

Again, lets not confuse a peer being asked what he thinks of the others type of art with telling one man what he should be doin with his money. Ask someone like Spike or many other people what they think of Tyler's type of entertainment...dont be surprised when you get a honest answer. It aint like people are boycotting with signs or something.

You serious?

 

The only BS seems to be your need to argue meaninglessly. I didn't come to the conclusion that "it is what it is", as that's always the case with me. I don't get personally invested in these topics like many folks. I offer my viewpoint and that's it, and often I don't identify which side of the issue I support, because that's not important to the discussion of the issues themselves.

It's obvious that I didn't want to discuss it with you as I didn't disagree with you. If you read my post carefully, as I suggested, I only attempted to frame the issue based on Spike Lee's position, period. On the other hand, your response was to make it personal by resorting to taunts about sensitivity and other things, and suggesting that issues aren't issues. That's ludicrous as Spike described the issue in detail. You may not agree with it, but the issue exists.

Once you attempted to dissect his position, through my post, I asked you tell me why, not through just opinion, but through logic and facts. In that regard it's a defense to show that you are just making noise. But, none was forthcoming from you. So, based on my observations of your interactions with other posters, and your tendency to argue for the sake of disagreement with no logic, I decided that I wasn't interested in engaging someone who won't engage me in discourse, which is a logical, non-personal, discussion regarding both sides of an issue.

But, in the words of another poster, "good luck with that" and by all means please continue to shout at walls, maybe in time they will answer you.

 

I never said ALL comedians, I referred to "comedians before them". I include people like Red Fox, Richard Pryor, Whoopi Goldberg and Dave Chappelle. By the way, these are not my words, these are the words of other Black comedians as well who are in a position to offer more insight. If you have an opportunity to see the documentary, I believe that it's called "Why We Laugh, Black Comedians on Black Comedy". You can also find the documentary on You Tube.

I disagree with you that Black artists have no cross to bear in their art. This is not just a historical issue, racism is a continuing problem and I believe that as people with the power to influence others, they do have a burden to bear for creating a change, rather than purely commercial success. There is nothing wrong with humor and I enjoy Black humor, just not humor that offers up the same stereotypes that we bitterly complain are committed in commercial films geared to white audiences.

I don't think that it's valid to compare a white ethnic group to black people and their experiences. There is no legacy of continued racism toward any white ethnicity, excepting Jewish people. It's not a case of embarrassment, it's the opportunity to view people in a different light than the popular opinion based on the prevalent racial attitudes, not historical problems. When and if the time comes that Black Americans have truly equal access to the fruits of their labor and parity in economics, then I think we can be less concerned. Otherwise, I think this vigilance is necessary.

 

cop out... thats not an excuse.. Dre had a father and father figures in his life and he went to suburban high school. He has as much responsibility to the black community as a successful black man as anyone else. particularly after his initial success with NWA and Death Row..he wasn't an overnight success himself and neither was TP who was homeless and down and out as a young person and molested as a child himself..they should be held to the same standard.

Spike did both..while he never came out and said don't buy TP movies ,he did cast them in an extremely negative way..he didn't say TP movies were bad because they were shot or written poorly (which is a critique of the work itself) he said they were coonery/buffoonery which infers they are harmful to the black community as a whole. He never said don't go to a TP movie but he did say you vote with your dollars and rosewood did nothing at the BO while a TP movie did much better inferring that rosewood is better than a TP movie in quality and merit. When the real issue as to why rosewood didn't do as well could have been timing or maybe the black community doesn't like period pieces as much as contemporary stories or maybe black people don't like john singleton as much or a myriad of reasons. Blaming the audience is never a good idea.

And asking someone like spike is pointless since black people like spike don't like to see black people being silly which is the niche Perry specializes in. They see that as coonery regardless.

yes..articulate what you see as coonery in the browns..exactly..people keep citing them and the paynes tv show but only as a general accusation..what about those shows is cooning?

 

yeah I saw it on showtime a while back and i recognized it in your post..but thats also a bit of revisionism going on there..I mention eddie murphy because while today he is mentioned as a king of comedy by rock and chappele and others when he was hot back in the 80s his act was very profane and that was the big knock on him by cosby and rodney dangerfield and other comedians back then. Eddie was "too blue". Now eddie is a genius..back then eddie was a dirty mouth comedian with only a fraction of pryors insight.

the problem with that is

1. there's no consistency in policing..the wayans and martin have delved in stereotypes and alot of it wasn't satirical or social commentary and no one in the black community complained as loudly or broadly about them (certainly spike never said anything about shenana or ugly wanda and the like.

2. where's the line and who has the last word on whats acceptable and whats not in black art and humor? tyler perrys movie are silly thats what theyre supposed to be..yes mr. brown is a buffoon and a clown he's supposed to be.. thats his function on the show..black people who watch it understand that and accept it. They don't see stepin fetchit they see a silly man who dresses funny. thats all. Same thing with Madea. that character is a caricature of the tough grandma figure.. its supposed to be.

what stepin fetchit was and mr brown is are worlds apart..if i were to compare mr brown to old world comedy i'd put him somewhere near the 3 stooges than amos and andy..

barack Obama is the most educated, diginified black man there is and a significant part of the country still sees him as a nigger no matter what he does..we have to understand that the problems of racism and attitudes is a problem thats on the side of the person who is racist not the person who is the victim of it. Thats like saying a rape victim contributed to their attack because of the way they dressed or behaved.

 

No matter how much you attempt to rationalize it, kids arent going to be held to the same standard as well off adults. if we were talking about about a 19 year old Tyler Perry id say the same thing.

None the less we're arguing a null point because I agreed with your premise overall.

Not much I can do about you not liking that Spike gave his opinion on Tyler's type of art. He basically said what a lot of people already felt. Nobody said it was going to be sweet.

Do I need to describe the old correlation in their buck dancing behavior? How about the outfits? The slow witted characters? Have we not seen this already in the past?

 

Oh please. You wanted my opinion and I gave it to you. If you don't like the way I handed over my thoughts on the matter then that's something that YOU have to deal with. I gave you my logic on it. You can be condescending about my thoughts on this all you want to...whatever floats your boat. My opinion was simply something that you didn't want to hear because you were not able to form an argument around it. Sorry, but it is what it is. Why the need to debate anyway? It's not going to change a thing. There is no coonery and black male bashing in Tyler's work as far as I can see. If you've seen all of his movies, you would know this too. Trust me when I say that no one leaves out of the theatres thinking that black men are dead beat no good men.

The thing that you DO need to be concerned about is the high incidence of black on black violence. THAT is what's making people look on in wonderment at black men...not Tyler's movies.

 

So here we are like always, ghetto vs. bourgie. Spike defenders vs. Tyler apologists.

Love how OpenHeart played the black men/black-on-black crime/it's all black men's fault card, as if that has anything to do with this discussion. Anything to diminish a black man's opinion, huh, sista? Especially when Swirlman's debate skills got you on the ropes.

"by all means please continue to shout at walls, maybe in time they will answer you." Classic.

You've gotta watch little details like that if you want us to keep believing you're a WW.

Carry on.

 

I don't "need" to argue with you about anything. If you don't want to hear what I have to say then don't post to me. Swirl, if I had a need to argue meaninglessly, I would have been arguing throughout this thread. Hellified has been holding it down in here all by himself...or hadn't you noticied? I don't know why you feel this way, but I stated an opinion some days ago on this and that was that. It was YOU that initiated this discussion with me....not the other way around. I have simply been replying to you. You call it arguing because that is what you are attempting to do with me. But I'm not going to get into a piss fight with you over this because I know that at the end of the day, I'm still gonna love and respect Tyler's work as well as some of Spike Lee's. It's just sad that he's putting himself out like that publicly instead of going to Tyler and discussing his opinions with him personally.

 

LOL...You wanna think that I'm on some kind of rope. Moreover, one doesn't have to be a BW to be aware of black on black violence. Whether you know it or not, white women read the newspaper too. Besides, you should know that I don't care if you think I'm black. You say that as if it's some kind of disease or something.:smt108 Classic...feelings easily hurt. Sorry, but I'm not going to always walk on egg shells around here. So cry me a river.

 

More like Boston Market vs Bojangles

 

LOL my feelings aren't hurt at all, why would you think that?

 

When a nerve is hit, there is always a response whether direct or indirect. I hit a nerve with something I said (you know) and you responded even though the post was made to someone else and not you.

 

LOL. damn. yeah you hit a nerve. how dare you have an opinion. dissing em like a mofo.

I dont agree with you on the TP issue but its cool in the game

TP has to a point diss black men and/or feminize bm (dressing like a woman) to sell tickets. Im not totally against the dude because that is his hustle (he did make a so-called good BM movie , the so called hero was a mechanic and a felon).

anyway you are fun to watch . keep it popping.

 

LOL...I really thought on that before I decided to type it, because I knew it would draw some heat.

I do kinda understand why you feel the way you do about TP, but I truly think it's the way we choose to look at a thing. About that feminization thing, if anything to me it seems as though BW would be the ones pissed off about Madea and Big Mama because it is more of a reflection on THEM than it is black men. Yet, they aren't mad about it at all. They love it. I only know of one black woman who is offended by Big Mama and Madea movies and trust me, she is not fat and ugly either. Check out the movie below...to me it is terribly funny. How is it coonery? I want to hear from you.

[HDYT]fIzYhtjPGJM[/HDYT]​

 

what I don't like is that spike didn't give constructive criticism he just complained. I don't like spike admonishing the black audience in general for not supporting the work he likes. I don't like spike, an elder statesmen in black cinema, choosing to rebuke a colleague in public rather than approach him in private.

By past do you mean the 60's 70's 80's 90's and 2000s?

because those are the same kind of characters you've seen on Thats My Mama, Good Times, The Wayan Brothers, Martin, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Love That Girl, MY Wife And Kids, The Parent Hood, the Parkers, In Living Color...the list goes on..you've seen characters like this in all of these shows..

where were the complaints then?

 

The complaints have always been there..

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124828546

 

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhrPIgYsO7300hxCTa

clifton powell give his opinion on spike lee..