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Has The Rise Of Women Turned Men Into Boys?

Discussion in 'In the News' started by naija4real, Mar 5, 2011.

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naija4real New Member

Has The Rise Of Women Turned Men Into Boys?

Has The Rise Of Women Turned Men Into Boys?
By JENNA GOUDREAU

“Where have all the good men gone?” asks Kay Hymowitz in the new book Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys. The author and Manhattan Institute fellow, a public policy think tank, offers a new perspective on today’s college-educated young adults. She believes the delay in marriage age and advancement in women’s education and career achievements has turned men in their 20s and early 30s into boys.

Immediately after an excerpt of the book appeared in the Wall Street Journal, waves of Internet backlash chastised Hymowitz’s “child-man” theory as anecdotal and man-hating. We took a quick poll of our 20-something guy friends to gain some male perspective. “Reverse sexism!” cried one. “I’m no Seth Rogen,” said another.

Hymowitz agreed to discuss her controversial theory, how she did her research and why she is not engaging in “male bashing” but is actually sympathetic to men who find themselves in a post-feminist world.

Forbes: What is the thesis of your new book, Manning Up?

Hymowitz: There is a new stage of life, which I call ‘preadulthood,’ that has been created by changes in the economy and the culture. This new stage has created all sorts of problems between the sexes. In large measure, that is because the women who enter this new stage of life are further along than the men. It is something new in human experience to have women as the first sex.

Why did you decide to write it now?

As I’ve watched my own kids [ages 33, 30 and 23] and their friends grow into this stage, it occurred to me that something is quite different in their experience than mine. I also was becoming aware of a trend in popular culture towards frat-house humor. We take it for granted now, but it actually was something new in the ‘90s. There was this new persona of what I call the ‘child-man.’ It occurred to me that this new period of life and the emergence of this new trend in popular culture were related.

What is ‘preadulthood?’

I define [preadults] as college-educated, single (not married), young adults, almost always living in cities. It’s taking a lot longer to grow up because it takes so much longer to get educated for work. More and more people are going to college and graduate school and getting professional training. That is the way to find the most gratifying, best-paying and prestigious jobs. That means you already have a number of years where you don’t want to be tied down. Then you add an extremely complex economy that requires moving from job to job and place to place. It’s awfully hard to do that with a husband and children.

If these young people are not yet adults in your eyes, what is your definition of ‘adult?’

Traditionally adulthood has begun at marriage. Every society needs to ensure that the next generation is being born and raised. Always in the past, that’s what men and women in their twenties were doing. We’ve never had this late an entrance into marriage and this large a group of singles all living in these communities. It is a new demographic.

Why is it necessary to define a new stage of life? Perhaps we need to change the definition of ‘adult.’

People are redefining what it means to become an adult. What people will generally say is to be an adult is to be self-sufficient. That is a very culturally specific definition. It is quite different from the previous understanding that to be an adult is to be contributing to the next generation.

Who is the ‘child-man?’

A lot of preadult young men are reacting to this new stage of life by embracing the pleasures and the persona of their youth. This is a source of frustration to a lot of women and one of the reasons I wrote the book. If you were going to find him in his most extreme form you could look at the movie Knocked Up. What you hear from a lot of women is guys who are slow to commit, heavily ironic, uncertain about how they should behave or what women want. There’s a funny blog post on The Frisky, a dating website, titled Ask Me Out On A Damn Date. Don’t ask me to ‘hang out.’ Ask me out on a ‘date.’

The culture at large is uncertain about what it wants from its men. We give a lot of mixed messages. We say, on the one hand, that fathers are so important. At the same time, we say that fathers are optional. Many women seem to want men that are confident and have a strong sense of themselves. At the same time, they are put off by too much masculine, authoritativeness. I think a lot of men react to these mixed signals by retreating into themselves, becoming passive and reluctant and often waiting for women to make the first move.

You are receiving a lot of criticism that your evidence is anecdotal. How did you do your research?

There’s quite a bit of literature in sociology on what is generally called ‘emerging adulthood.’ I thought that phrase was vague, so I talked about it as ‘preadulthood.’ I looked at data on college graduation. Women are the majority of college and grad school graduates and are more or less equal when it comes to law school and medical school. There’s new data that shows that young, single, college-educated women are out-earning their male peers. That suggested to me an imbalance.

There was also so much complaining by women. There are articles every few months about this more passive, boyish behavior among men. I thought there was enough there to take seriously. Nobody has done research on how many men have Star Wars posters in their apartments. Nobody’s done research on how many men wait for women to ask them out. All I could do was talk to people and read what they were saying.

Why is there no mention of a parallel ‘child-woman?’

It’s an interesting point. I can think of one person you could call a child-woman and that’s Sarah Silverman. And you know what? Her show was dropped very quickly. I thought that was significant. I don’t think women take pleasure in seeing themselves as little girls. Men seem to. The question is, why?

If women were once infantilized by dependence on husbands, has the rise of women in the workplace helped them to, as a group, grow up?

I think women have an implicit deadline to building up their careers. They know that decision [to have children] is coming. Men don’t have that deadline. I’ve had men say to me, ‘I’m a guy; I can wait ‘til I’m 35 or 40.’ And it’s true. That means that preadult men and women are on different tracks. That’s a source of stress between the sexes.

Is this preadulthood phase directly linked to women’s advancement in the workforce?

Preadulthood is entwined with the knowledge economy, which is very female friendly. Yes there had to be feminism and the pill for women to get ahead, but you also needed a knowledge economy that was pouring out millions of really interesting and gratifying jobs that women were as good at as men.

As you imply in your subtitle, do you believe the rise of women has created the ‘child-man,’ or have the changes in the economy and culture allowed him to extend his youth?

Continue reading here
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naija4real, Mar 5, 2011

#1
Nico Banned

I stopped at "Where have all the good men gone?"

Nico, Mar 5, 2011

#2
MissWacy New Member
Nico said: ↑

I stopped at "Where have all the good men gone?"
Click to expand...

the women who complain about there not being any or want one turn em all down :wink:

MissWacy, Mar 5, 2011

#3
- Like x 1
- List
xoxo Well-Known Member

If this drivel was written by a man it would be deemed sexist.

xoxo, Mar 5, 2011

#4
MissWacy New Member

xoxo said: ↑

If this drivel was written by a man it would be deemed sexist.
Click to expand...

very true, especially to the feminist misandrists

MissWacy, Mar 5, 2011

#5
pettyofficerj New Member

Nico said: ↑

I stopped at "Where have all the good men gone?"
Click to expand...

that

pettyofficerj, Mar 5, 2011

#6
Tamstrong Administrator Staff Member

naija4real said: ↑

Has The Rise Of Women Turned Men Into Boys?
Click to expand...

I don't think delayed marriage or a woman's achievements have anything to do with turning men into boys. The woman who wrote that crap is an idiot.

In this society in general sons & daughters aren't being raised to be strong adults. It's lazy, absent, neglectful, irresponsible, etc. parents who aren't stepping up & doing their damn jobs that cause the problem.

It is best for children to have a strong relationship with both parents. In the case of male children, not enough of them have fathers around to raise them. Only a man can teach a boy how to be a man imo. I'm a single mom & I did my best with my son whose dad chose not to be a part of his life. In many respects he did him a favor, because evidently he's not a real man, so he would've been unable to teach my son how to be one, BUT an absent father is NOT what I wanted for my child. Only a selfish woman would want that for her children. Whether it's fathers who disappear or women who impede the father/child relationship (& vise versa); it's wrong & it does serious damage to the children.

There are women who feel animosity toward men which carries over into their parenting. If a son is raised by a woman who expresses this hostility by man bashing (especially about his own father), he will typically take those things to heart. If he grows up hearing that men ain't shit, it teaches him that he ain't shit. That often becomes his self-fulfilling prophecy & ruins his life. These women don't seem to understand or care that when they're emaculating men, they are emasculating their sons in the process. Daughters that grow up around that garbage tend to end up just like their mothers. It's a jacked up cycle.

Btw, NO PARENT SHOULD EVER TALK SHIT ABOUT THE OTHER PARENT TO THEIR CHILDREN. IF YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU WILL NEVER DO THIS. THAT PERSON IS PART OF WHO YOUR CHILD IS, & BY BASHING THEM, YOU ARE BASHING YOUR CHILDREN WHICH HURTS THEM & YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM.

Another issue many children have is they're not being taught about responsibility, hard work & accountability, so life tends to bite them in the ass because they're unprepared to deal with it.

Tamstrong, Mar 5, 2011

#7
MissWacy New Member

Tamstrong said: ↑

I don't think delayed marriage or a woman's achievements have anything to do with turning men into boys. The woman who wrote that crap is an idiot.

In this society in general sons & daughters aren't being raised to be strong adults. It's lazy, absent, neglectful, irresponsible, etc. parents who aren't stepping up & doing their damn jobs that cause the problem.

It is best for children to have a strong relationship with both parents. In the case of male children, not enough of them have fathers around to raise them. Only a man can teach a boy how to be a man imo. I'm a single mom & I did my best with my son whose dad chose not to be a part of his life. In many respects he did him a favor, because evidently he's not a real man, so he would've been unable to teach my son how to be one, BUT an absent father is NOT what I wanted for my child. Only a selfish woman would want that for her children. Whether it's fathers who disappear or women who impede the father/child relationship (& vise versa); it's wrong & it does serious damage to the children.

There are women who feel animosity toward men which carries over into their parenting. If a son is raised by a woman who expresses this hostility by man bashing (especially about his own father), he will typically take those things to heart. If he grows up hearing that men ain't shit, it teaches him that he ain't shit. That often becomes his self-fulfilling prophecy & ruins his life. These women don't seem to understand or care that when they're emaculating men, they are emasculating their sons in the process. Daughters that grow up around that garbage tend to end up just like their mothers. It's a jacked up cycle.

Btw, NO PARENT SHOULD EVER TALK SHIT ABOUT THE OTHER PARENT TO THEIR CHILDREN. IF YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU WILL NEVER DO THIS. THAT PERSON IS PART OF WHO YOUR CHILD IS, & BY BASHING THEM, YOU ARE BASHING YOUR CHILDREN WHICH HURTS THEM & YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM.

Another issue many children have is they're not being taught about responsibility, hard work & accountability, so life tends to bite them in the ass because they're unprepared to deal with it.
Click to expand...

well said about the mothers with sons saying men aint shit etc etc, it will have an effect on them in the future, i know some of my aunts both in us and uk are guilty of bashing thier childrens father in front of them lots

MissWacy, Mar 5, 2011

#8
Ra Well-Known Member

Tamstrong said: ↑

I don't think delayed marriage or a woman's achievements have anything to do with turning men into boys. The woman who wrote that crap is an idiot.

In this society in general sons & daughters aren't being raised to be strong adults. It's lazy, absent, neglectful, irresponsible, etc. parents who aren't stepping up & doing their damn jobs that cause the problem.

It is best for children to have a strong relationship with both parents. In the case of male children, not enough of them have fathers around to raise them. Only a man can teach a boy how to be a man imo. I'm a single mom & I did my best with my son whose dad chose not to be a part of his life. In many respects he did him a favor, because evidently he's not a real man, so he would've been unable to teach my son how to be one, BUT an absent father is NOT what I wanted for my child. Only a selfish woman would want that for her children. Whether it's fathers who disappear or women who impede the father/child relationship (& vise versa); it's wrong & it does serious damage to the children.

There are women who feel animosity toward men which carries over into their parenting. If a son is raised by a woman who expresses this hostility by man bashing (especially about his own father), he will typically take those things to heart. If he grows up hearing that men ain't shit, it teaches him that he ain't shit. That often becomes his self-fulfilling prophecy & ruins his life. These women don't seem to understand or care that when they're emaculating men, they are emasculating their sons in the process. Daughters that grow up around that garbage tend to end up just like their mothers. It's a jacked up cycle.

Btw, NO PARENT SHOULD EVER TALK SHIT ABOUT THE OTHER PARENT TO THEIR CHILDREN. IF YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU WILL NEVER DO THIS. THAT PERSON IS PART OF WHO YOUR CHILD IS, & BY BASHING THEM, YOU ARE BASHING YOUR CHILDREN WHICH HURTS THEM & YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM.

Another issue many children have is they're not being taught about responsibility, hard work & accountability, so life tends to bite them in the ass because they're unprepared to deal with it.
Click to expand...

Since I have already repped you this go around, you have back rep coming for this the next time I can rep you. :smt023

Ra, Mar 5, 2011

#9
Tony Soprano Moderator

Tony Soprano, Mar 5, 2011

#10
Tamstrong Administrator Staff Member

TastyAcidMilk said: ↑

well said about the mothers with sons saying men aint shit etc etc, it will have an effect on them in the future, i know some of my aunts both in us and uk are guilty of bashing thier childrens father in front of them lots
Click to expand...

A lot of people do that crap & it upsets me. It's like they think they're hurting the parent they're talking about by turning their children against them, but it always backfires & bites them in the ass. It does nothing but harm to the children.

Tamstrong, Mar 5, 2011

#11
Tamstrong Administrator Staff Member

Eye of Ra said: ↑

Since I have already repped you this go around, you have back rep coming for this the next time I can rep you. :smt023
Click to expand...

Thanks, Ra-Ra! :smt003

Tamstrong, Mar 5, 2011

#12
wtarshi Well-Known Member

Nico said: ↑

I stopped at "Where have all the good men gone?"
Click to expand...

yep. first thing that came to mind was 'more drivel from a bitter woman'

wtarshi, Mar 5, 2011

#13
Darkseid Member

@ Tamstrong

Excellent comments. I would also add that many of the young people (male and female) who grow up with both parents nowadays are self-centered, have an extreme sense of entitlement and just plain spoiled. Seems to be a generational thing.

That said, the author of the book came across in this article as being very judgmental. She said older men (i.e., over 30) are usually "damaged" in some way as they are divorced and/or have children. (I suppose that hit me because I am both and do not perceive myself as "damaged") So basically if you read this post, the young men are too childish and the older men are damaged. Where does that leave women? I suppose you have to buy the book to find out.

Another part of me thinks that she is following "Tiger Mother" Amy Chua's road map to selling books. Say something really provocative to increase sales. Maybe I need to write a book with some offensive title and go out and promote it..."Why men ain't sh*t and good for nothing" or something like that

Darkseid, Mar 5, 2011

#14
Tamstrong Administrator Staff Member

Darkseid said: ↑

@ Tamstrong

Excellent comments. I would also add that many of the young people (male and female) who grow up with both parents nowadays are self-centered, have an extreme sense of entitlement and just plain spoiled. Seems to be a generational thing.

That said, the author of the book came across in this article as being very judgmental. She said older men (i.e., over 30) are usually "damaged" in some way as they are divorced and/or have children. (I suppose that hit me because I am both and do not perceive myself as "damaged") So basically if you read this post, the young men are too childish and the older men are damaged. Where does that leave women? I suppose you have to buy the book to find out.

Another part of me thinks that she is following "Tiger Mother" Amy Chua's road map to selling books. Say something really provocative to increase sales. Maybe I need to write a book with some offensive title and go out and promote it..."Why men ain't sh*t and good for nothing" or something like that
Click to expand...

Thanks Darkseid.

You're absolutely right, too many of these kids are spoiled rotten. I think sometimes kids just have it too easy for their own good these days. I know I made some mistakes by trying to make up for my son's dad not being around, & there were times my son was clueless about just how hard I had to work to provide for him. Thankfully he turned out pretty well.

The author is very judgmental & a bitter hag imo. She had to come up with some reason other than her arrogance & stank attitude for the fact that she can't get a man. I doubt you'd find any answers about women in there, because she obviously thinks the onus is all on the men.

LOL, it is amazing how these idiots can get published, isn't it?

Tamstrong, Mar 5, 2011

#15
The Dark King Well-Known Member

Tam and Darkseid you guys are brilliant. Great posts guys. Bitter bitches need to grow up

The Dark King, Mar 5, 2011

#16
Tamstrong Administrator Staff Member

MrFantastic said: ↑

Tam and Darkseid you guys are brilliant. Great posts guys. Bitter bitches need to grow up
Click to expand...

Thanks, Drae! :smt080

Tamstrong, Mar 5, 2011

#17
OpenHeart New Member

Tamstrong said: ↑

I don't think delayed marriage or a woman's achievements have anything to do with turning men into boys. The woman who wrote that crap is an idiot.

In this society in general sons & daughters aren't being raised to be strong adults. It's lazy, absent, neglectful, irresponsible, etc. parents who aren't stepping up & doing their damn jobs that cause the problem.

It is best for children to have a strong relationship with both parents. In the case of male children, not enough of them have fathers around to raise them. Only a man can teach a boy how to be a man imo. I'm a single mom & I did my best with my son whose dad chose not to be a part of his life. In many respects he did him a favor, because evidently he's not a real man, so he would've been unable to teach my son how to be one, BUT an absent father is NOT what I wanted for my child. Only a selfish woman would want that for her children. Whether it's fathers who disappear or women who impede the father/child relationship (& vise versa); it's wrong & it does serious damage to the children.

There are women who feel animosity toward men which carries over into their parenting. If a son is raised by a woman who expresses this hostility by man bashing (especially about his own father), he will typically take those things to heart. If he grows up hearing that men ain't shit, it teaches him that he ain't shit. That often becomes his self-fulfilling prophecy & ruins his life. These women don't seem to understand or care that when they're emaculating men, they are emasculating their sons in the process. Daughters that grow up around that garbage tend to end up just like their mothers. It's a jacked up cycle.

Btw, NO PARENT SHOULD EVER TALK SHIT ABOUT THE OTHER PARENT TO THEIR CHILDREN. IF YOU LOVE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU WILL NEVER DO THIS. THAT PERSON IS PART OF WHO YOUR CHILD IS, & BY BASHING THEM, YOU ARE BASHING YOUR CHILDREN WHICH HURTS THEM & YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM.
Another issue many children have is they're not being taught about responsibility, hard work & accountability, so life tends to bite them in the ass because they're unprepared to deal with it.
Click to expand...

You should definitely consider writting a book, girl. This post is dead on point.
Consider yourself Repped! I would give you two on this one if I could.

OpenHeart, Mar 5, 2011

#18
desreveRsIgnitirW New Member

Ladies and gentlemen,LarryLong has just entered the building.

desreveRsIgnitirW, Mar 5, 2011

#19
Ymra New Member

No the raise of

the raise of "Why don't need to be married to show we love each other"

the raise of "Marriage is just a piece of paper"

the raise of the raise of "You don't have to live together to be a family"

...which all turned into the increase of boys growing up with not fathers, and those boys having to figure it out on their own HOW TO BE A MAN, or learning how to be a man from their mothers.

No matter how hard a woman tries she simply can not teach a boy that which she is not........a man.

the raise of that has turn men into boys...or rather, not allowed boys to turn into men to begin with.

Ymra, Mar 6, 2011

#20

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