Quick question for black guys.

Meh.....his reply was neither right nor wrong. My reply to him was simplistic because his rebuttal was simplistic. Its hard to reply to someone when they say "but white people do it to" I don't see that as pro-black, but dismissive, and that is what his reply amounted too.

The fact of the matter is a lack of black male leadership is the reason for a large number of our problems. Educate, Crime, single parent hood, Poverty" Now you can call it "anti-black" if you want too, but I'm going to need you at least to come with something a little bit stronger.

..besides, who can I be "anti-black" if I'm praising black women for being strong and black men for being weak" Maybe you have an ax to grind.....who knows...

....but again in case you missed it, I am not anti-black.

 

Curious as to why you discounted everything Botoan wrote? With all due respect, where is your argument other than blanket sweeping generalizations.

There isn't a working adult in this country, except perhaps you, that believes as a whole women out earn men. Including Black workers. It's actually a statistical fact.

In the last formal census, WW earned 73% to WM, and BW earned 84% to BM. Since then there has been an 8% rise in BW wages, with a 2% loss for BM. It still equated to 92% vs 98%. How do arrive at BW earning more than BM?


In fact, here is another partial 2005 Census Statistic that shows males 25 +
had a higher yearly income than females 25 + among all races...





I don't know about you, but I look to my friends and lovers and around my black middle-class neighborhood and don't see black men who have failed their communities, homes, and children. On the contrary.

Perhaps you are including Black men who don't stay with the mother of their children (aka single mothers) as men not TAKING care of their children, financially or otherwise? Because in many cases, Black fathers ARE paying to care for their children.

In fact, I know several Black men who pay towards their child/children, but off the "books'. Books, aka statistics that are used to measure who pays child support or does not. That's not to say many Black fathers don't pay a dime, but can you say that is the majority of Black men?

Perhaps you view poor Black neighborhood riddled with crime as the first and last stop of Black men in life? Or that they don't care or want to change that. In this aspect, there are also a lot of forces working that keeps this the status quo, and it 'aint always the community, believe that.

I'm curious if you believe that you as an adult Black man (and the Black men that YOU personally know), has failed your community, your home, and your children? You have to start there and work your way out. If you and the men around you are utter failures, then your argument stands true - for you, but that doesn't necesarily mean you can collectively speak for Black men as a whole as having failed at the important things in life. How does one even measure what failure is?
Frankly in the face of challenges that Black men have faced ad-infinitum in this country, I applaud the many many brothers who take care of them and theirs. (even if you won't).

 

I think I already addressed this in post #185.

...I was in error. I was referring to and said wrong was something totally different and had to do with income gains and unemployed. Instead of trying to fix what I said, which again was wrong...I simply submitted....

...I have to be honest I didn't read anything past your line above If you start off wrong there is no reason for me to read further

I hope you are no longer curious with regards to that point. Everything else his reply was what amounted to "whites do it too". How does one respond to that?

 

Well, I certainly get why folks are disagreeing with Ymra. As archangel points out, however hard I've worked individually in my own life, suddenly it's a collective "we" who aren't up to snuff for the black community.

Unfortunately, though we could quibble with him endlessly over the details, there is some validity to what he's saying. For all the accomplishments of individual black men, as a group "we" have seemed to struggle some with the provider/protector role. Now, the danger of being accused of finger-pointing aside for a moment, I think it is valid and even important to note that no statistical result comes to exist in a vacuum. This is to say, if black men have failed our communities in the past, this is not something that came to pass due solely to us, with outside influence whatsoever.

I tend towards being pretty long-winded and I have some pretty strong opinions on political stuff, but I'm gonna try to cover a lot in a few words, explaining my opinion on this. In short, a capitalist economic system needs an underclass. It's the only way the system can balance out to a small upper-class who get increasingly richer with minimal effort -- there must be a large underclass who merely subsist, despite working itself literally to death.

Now, make no mistake, of course there are lots of poor white people and other kinds of poor people. And there's black people who are not poor. Nonetheless, I say to you that a "permanent" underclass is needed for a stable capitalist society, and black people were designated that, here. It's true, that since the Civil Rights Movement, much of the official and sanctioned enforcement of this designation has become illegal. But one, that doesn't mean that centuries of outright and deliberate effort to harm the black family would lose impact overnight.

And two, just look at our legal/prison system. Really, it might as well be called, "We Don't Like Black Men, Inc."

But to avoid being as long-winded as I normally would be, to sum up: As the US has had a somewhat unique role in the history of the world, so have black people had a unique role in America. We've had some interesting challenges put to us as a people, and honestly one of the things that bugs me is when some people seem to consider African culture as somehow more legitimate or worthy of pride than African-American ... yeah, I'm not going to go off too much on that, but I'm just gonna say that I think the people that we are is amazing, especially considering those "unique challenges" put to us as a group. In short, if black men as a group don't seem to behave exactly as groups of other men, I'd guess this is at least in part due to the unique circumstances that have defined black men in relation to the greater society.

And if more of us fail at the provide/protect role, exactly because the system is designed so that we do? What does this mean for the rest of us?

If you listen to some, it means your overall responsibility to the community is increased, because you have to take up the slack left by those men who are absent (be that physically, or just economically/legally). For myself, I'm afraid that's about where my militancy runs out...

 

I would by a plane ticket to Australia just so I could touch you - and find out if you're real...

 

Much of this is correct but I can not agree with this idea to pick up the slack. The fact of the matter is people enable for others to not be responsibility and take care of their problem. People enable "this oh someone else will take care of it" environment if you choose to follow this path.
There is also the problem of people seeing each other as human instead of this group or that group

edit:sorry not you but those who think that we have to pick up the slack

 

When I speak about black men (positive or negative) I use words like "WE" "US" "OUR" rather than "THEM" "THEIRS". For I am a part of that group regardless of my personal situation. I live in HoCo MD, 2006-2008 3rd wealthiest county in the US. with a median income of $110,907 I own 5 pieces of property that I rent, it is foolish of me to pretend that a large percentage, or even MOST blacks have the income that I have. I graduated high-school I have a college degree. (currently back in school to obtain another one...don't ask me what I didn't go to grad school) I can not pretend that every (or even most) black men are running around college educated...its simply not true. (btw HowardCo the number of IR couples in this country has to be a record...I love it here)

And it would be wrong to suggest because the above is my individual existence all black men, families, and communities are the same.

Our reality is what I believe it to be. Did we come to this reality by ourselves, certainly not; however, I believe that in many cases WE (Black males) are the reason we do not progress.

 

I don't know if I would say "pick up the slack" but I do agree that we bare some responsiblity. As black men what we have was not fought for us by us, we didn't do it alone.

So I think it is then wrong for us to turn around and say "ok you have to do it yourself" when we did not do it ourselves.

 

At some point, one has to realize that individuals are responsible for their actions and not a group. When you use we or similar words, you paint it as if it is my problem that another person is not successful. Make no mistake about it, it is that person's fault. There are plenty of men in the black community that are leading. It is not their fault that others have chosen to abandon their responsibilities. There continues to be this attempt by certain people to join us because of our race. It will not work because of human individuality.

 

I think we will simply disagree. For one. I am not sure where the median number of "plenty" is. I would suggest that plenty does not mean majority, or a large number.

I believe we have some responsibly to give to other because so much was given to us.

 

What responsibility we bare is to be a contributing factor(taking care of your responsibility) to society. I don't have the time to correct the behavior of a black(or any other race) man shooting another one in Chicago. I have to deal with my problems here. You are correct. We did not do it by ourselves. My father and loved ones gave undivided attention to me and now I owe my loved ones the same. I, however, do not owe a guy on the other side of the country the same. I don't owe the kid he may leave fatherless a thing. This is especially the case if I have my own children.

 

Perhaps I am in idealist. But I am not talking about you the individual nor your family and I speaking of us as group. Your father may have paid sole attention to you but the gains that we have a people were not fought for us by us alone, nor by you, nor by your father. You father didn't fight for education, your father didn't fight for the right to vote. Your father did not fight for equality in home loans and business. Yet you and your father enjoy the benefits.

This is what I mean by "fought for us by those greater than us" and now the idea that "I did it for myself so can you" is not only flawed but wrong. We did not do it by ourselves...

And if we are talking about "contributing to society" that goes beyond simple taking care of ones self ones family...

Mentoring if there is a need (and there is)
Teaching others if there is a need (and there is a need)
Helping the elderly if there is a need (and there is a need)
Giving to the community if there is a need (and there is a need)

 

Exactly to your first paragraph. This is what I meant when I noted,
"..there are also a lot of forces working that keeps this the status quo, and it 'aint always the community, believe that.

I'll go one step beyond "we don't like Black Men, Inc,
to
"Justice System: Semi Largest Employer in the US: Prisoners: Cheapest form of Labor".

Yes prisoners are bad -that's usually why they are there. But I theorize there are some very happy people that they are bad and housed away. Better a bad poor man locked away than a poor man. A poor man will suck the welfare system, but a criminal offers cheap labor (you can't be in prison and not work, unless you have a medical condition to excuse you) for a few cents and 3 hots and a cot in return.

I even researched it and was surprised to find how many prisoners are "in" our workforce. One article I found was TEN YEARS old, so imagine today.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/may2000/pris-m08.shtml


These prisoner do the law work for court houses and even built a football field.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10249/1085389-59.stm


I know the overall consensus is "tough titties" but it makes me wonder the agenda sometimes, particularly with the increase in non violent offenders.

 

I agree that other people dealt with other issues but they took up responsibility. Your idea(from what I get) does not address the lack of responsibility from some of these other men that do damage society in a whole. You say hey let me take care of your kid while you escape your responsibilities. This is the reality of the problem in all communities. The men who decide to not take up responsibility. To enable them only makes it worse.

Lastly, it is interesting to see how people segment others. This problem of lack of leadership from fathers(this has to be the root of the problem) is human issue and not simply a black community issue. I just oppose the idea of putting me in the same box as another person who isn't contributing.

 

lol. I'm not there anymore, I'm in PA now.

 

Really? What part? Sometimes I shot in PA. Guns and/or cameras.

 

Pennsylvania?! Are you kidding me? I go to Quaker Steak & Lube Restaurant all the time for Wednesday Motorcycle Night - in Sharon, Pennsylvania. I live in Ohio.

 

I'm in Philadelphia. I shoot, too. I've been to an open range in the Poconos, but mostly I stay local. I have a .38 Taurus. My friend just bought a .45 (not a Luger though) and I'm meeting him next week to try it out. A shotgun is the most powerful I have shot, so I'm excited to try his .45.

 

That's mercer County, I think. Near Pits? A bit far from me. Though I was in Johnstown, PA last month to help take my friend's kid to private school up there.

BTW, I see you ride bikes. I was in Wildwood last weekend for Bike week. First time, and it was uh..crazy!

 

My home boy and his baby.....(both of them)