I get so mad I sometimes. I really do hate G-d at times

agree...or we could say that living a good life was reward enough

thank you for your well wishes gz...and for not lecturing me

beautifully put chi, and i can see where you are coming from & appreciate your pov.

i do think that religion brings comfort to people, and i wouldn't call it brain washing, but i think that if you're taught something from a very young age, especially the theory of heaven and hell, you're more than likely not going to waiver from that path, and chance a meeting with the firey depths.

as always chi...right on point, and nicely put...!!!

such great points andrae. my mother was in the salvation army growing up (my grandfather was ranked) and she despised all that she was enforced to believe, so when myself and my brothers were born she decided that we would have the free will to choose a religion if we so wished....it was to be our choice. neither my brothers nor i have been baptised and we do not follow any religion, yet i would call myself a spiritual person. i think it is absurd that if there is a heaven that i could not enter because of any of this, especially because i would consider us "good people".

in the end i respect the pov of you all and admire your beliefs be they christian, buddhism, muslim or athiest...and wish you nothing but bliss & love in this lifetime, and the next...!!!

 

Amen Tarshi amen.
I don't mean to hijack your post but its easier to respond here than individually commenting on everyones posts lol.

1. Dj I do agree with you that the mind may try to find scenarios that are pyschologically statisfing in order to make the death process and more importantly the life process easier to deal but I don't think anyone can definitively say what happens next is simply decomposition. It may be all our limited perspective can see for now but I'm sure there's more. Just like hundreds of years ago the existence of radio waves and quantum fields were unknown to man or more accurately we were unaware but it still existed outside of our awareness. There are many examples of this all being intelligent design which leads me to believe there is a God and as hard as science might true to prove otherwise it can't. I implore you to read Conversations With God An Uncommon Dialogue by Neale Donald Walsh, this one piece of literature has completely and forever changed my life.

2. Chi your examples of long lasting relationships don't really prove love as much as it does obligation and/or habit. Romantic love is a beautiful concept but in practice it personifies the worst of human characteristics. The fear and insecurities that come with it are so unhealthy. Jealousy greed manipulation just to name a fw and before you or others reply that you haven't experienced that take a look around at the worlds divorce rate amongst industrialized countries. I would dare say most of the couples entered the relationship thinking things were going to last but for some reason or another it ended and usually not on good terms. Its the only relationship we have in our lives where love is very conditional. You have a series of fights with your siblings or if they hit you or they decide to hang out with and develop relationships with others there isn't the same sense of betrayl or feelings of inadequecies that you feel in romantic love.
Its an amazing illusion and maybe my view might change as I get older but I do see a clear correlation between money looks and status in reference to the development of romantic feelings. I understand that some people can see the soul of a person which is great but there is no denying that the more optimal a persons situation is the easier it is to "love" them.

 

Is the "I Hate God" thread still going? Oh? Good.

 

All that you're suggesting is that you don't believe that the popular notion of romantic love, as it is usually described, exists. Obviously I disagree, but just as I respect atheists who don't believe in God as he's described, I respect those who don't believe in romantic love as it's described. Many people live full, happy lives without believing in one or the other or either, and I hope that whatever your life brings, it is good.

 

Who’s to say that he wasn’t in love with all of his wives? Or if he wasn’t “in love” with them, who’s to say that he didn’t love them? You can’t say that for certain. No one can.

I guess it depends on what you consider a short relationship. And if you observe love as a chemical reaction, the way scientists do, then technically, people can be in love for a very short time. But you obviously view it as a purely emotional type of thing so…

I don’t remember disagreeing with that.

That’s almost always the way it works, and so I consider it a safe generalization.

I suppose it’s better than having no girl or no love.

If that’s what you see, then fine. But that’s not what I see in this world. When we’re dealing with intangible things such as love it is always going to boil down to perception. Some people say that there’s more good in the world, some people say that there’s more evil in the world. Who’s right and who’s wrong? No one can say because no one can say for sure how much good or evil is in the world, or at least not in the same way that they can say how many people are in the world.

Because the methods which one can use to “get the girl” are not set in stone? Preferences are also not set in stone, but there are general patterns that we see.

Fair enough.

Well, here’s a more up-to-date article and not much has changed.
http://www.scientificblogging.com/s...ention/blog/new_science_love_and_attraction_0

“Despite a common perception that beauty standards vary widely around the world, studies have shown that people from diverse cultures tend to agree on which faces are hot and which are not (most research in this area focuses on facial rather than body shape attractiveness)10. In fact, even infants prefer to look at attractive faces over non-attractive ones, which suggests that perceptions of beauty are fundamental and universal11. This supports evolutionary theories according to which attractive characteristics are those which draw us to healthy and reliable partners who can provide quality genes and care to potential offspring. So if beauty is not exactly in the eye of the beholder, then where is it?”

I have to disagree. Margo’s appearance gave her an attraction advantage which increased her chances.

That’s true, but a long-term relationship doesn’t necessarily equate with being loved or being “in love”. Nothing that you say will make me conform to the troubadours' redefinition of love.

 

I respect your optimism.

I don't really like to juxtapose scientific advances with the possibility of a God but I can understand where you're coming from. However, as I mentioned early...from a literary perspective, God is a tyrannical orchestrator of mass murders and the so-called history contained within The Bible is juvenile at best. No credible archaeologist or historian even believes that The Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt, or that they built the pyramids. So, if there is a higher power, The Bible is obviously not an ideal portal. I would be willing to check out the Neale Donald Walsh book though. Thank you for the recommendation.

 

Look at my original post

You have proven me right. You don't necessarily "believe" in long term romantic love beyond what we can scientifically test.

 

I also agree that most Christians don't act like Christians but that is because we have socially evolved past the stage of what people were in the Bible. If people really lived the way they lived in the Bible, America would be like the middle east where a woman can get stoned to death for getting an education.

I don't think humans have free will, more like the illusion of free will. I was always taught that God was all knowing. If he is all knowing he had to know how my life would turn out before I was even born. If that is the case do I really have free will? My destiny for heaven or hell was was already predetermined before god created Adam and Eve, even though I have free will. God would have also knew that Eve was going to eat from the Tree of Knowledge before he even created humans, right? God should have also known that his most beautiful angel Lucifer would eventually turn on him and help create the downfall of the creatures that he created in his own image. I ask what was the purpose of creating us he knew how we were going to turn out? Should I really be punished for something that god could have easily prevented by not creating me?

 

If you prefer to have not existed, that's your prerogative. Personally that wouldn't be my choice.

 

Babe did you grow up religious or was this something you found later in life?

 

I suggest you read the book I recommended to DJ or if you want I can email you the audio. Its incredibly insightful and most of your questions are addressed.

 

My mother was religious, but not the church going type. My father was very openly agnostic. I spent the majority of my younger years with my grandparents on my mother's side, and my grandmother was what I would call devout. She and my grandfather are perhaps the only people I've known who truly practiced what they preached. They adhered to a moral code, and there was no deviation, and they instilled that in me. I honestly don't recall anyone every pushing religion on me as a child, but I cannot think of a time when I didn't know there was a God. It's not something I learned, it's just something I've always known and felt. What I find odd is I am extremely curious by nature, and I question and research everything, but I have no questions about God, and faith is perhaps one of the hardest things for logical minded people to accept. I just always knew, and I don't question because there's no need. I know nothing will ever change my mind on the subject, I've felt God, I know He exists, end of discussion in my mind. I think it's hard to communicate that to someone who doesn't have faith, or who hasn't felt His presence in their life though, because people so often demand proof and for something like this there just isn't any. You either feel it, or you don't.

 

I feel hope and what I thought is God but I can only have faith in me at this point. I've seen entire nations who believed and were wiped out mercilessly. People who are good and honest are usually the ones who get hardest hands dealt. I will never say there isn't a God because that type of arrogance rubs me the wrong way. Its just impossible to believe that there is anything looking out for us other than us. The suffering out there is very real and it seems endless but if you've been able to find something that makes life better for you I'm truly happy for you babe.

 

This is where I often have trouble Andrae. People seem to think those that believe should expect the easiest lives, and I think that's ludicrous. The stronger your faith, the more it will be tested, that I firmly believe. As I said, it's easy to profess faith when everything is going your way, but it's the truly faithful who manage to continue to profess it even when life becomes hard. I know entirely too many people who spout religion to everyone who will listen, profess to be devout, church-going, good Christians, and then something negative occurs in their life and they are the first ones to curse God and demand to know why He did this to them. They miss the point completely, and people like that are very disappointing to me. I've never asked why when bad things happen to me, not once, and I don't expect I ever will. That's when I pray for God to grant me whatever necessary to get me through it, and He always does.

I think there are people who when faced with darkness, their first and only instinct is to curl up in the corner and wait for someone to find them and take them back into the light. Those people lack faith. I know there will be times of darkness, just as I know there will always be light. When faced with darkness my first instinct will always be to find my way back to the light, even if I have to crawl on my hands and knees every single step of the way. That's faith, and it is an unstoppable force that no one can take from you. That doesn't mean they won't try though, but the truly faithful will always win that fight babe... always.

 

That brings up one of my biggest issues with Christianity. Why are we suppose to thank God for everything but never blame him for anything. Sounds like way too much of a onsided relationship. I guess I'm tired of disappointments the only thing I know I can count on is me everything else is a bonus. Like I said I truly believe there is a God there is too much elegantly designed beauty in nature to think otherwise. I just don't think he's as invested us as we are him but what do I know I'm just spec in the boondocks of the milky way. I guess I'll find out when I die.

 

You might find out before babe, you never know. And I can't answer your question, I think that's another of those things you have to figure out for yourself. I've never questioned, I just don't feel it's my place, in fact it's more that I know it's not and I can't honestly explain where that belief comes from. It's just how I am. I tried recently to explain this to my daughter, and came up short. 'I just know' is the best I could do for her too.

 

I do hope God exists, and when i die i want nothing to do with god .. also hope devil exist too as that's where i choose to go i want nothing with god anymore i did put in the bin my cross not long ago ..

I don't care anymore done nothing for me and for so many other people i know

 

Damn Nyx if you need talk baby girl this is the place to do it. I'd be happy to listen.

 

I agree with you, Espy. I know that you are shocked. LOL Being a Christian doesn't guarantee a life with no pain, heartache or suffering. It's a part of life that we all must face, and there will be trials and temptations that go along with it. I've always felt that when I'm going through difficult times that there was a reason for it, even if I didn't know at the time. It may have been to make me stronger. It may have been for me to be an example to others who were going through similar circumstances. It may have been to humble me to show me Who is really in control. Regardless, those are things that I don't question. If I'm going to question 'why me' in the bad times, I must also question 'why me' in the good times.

 

Excellent point. Interesting concept. Nobody questions the good times, only the bad....