Black Actor nixes I/R storyline

So that must make me a white guy now huh?:smt002

 

Up to around the 2:20 mark.

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Denzel has been reluctant about any onscreen intimacy to be honest. But when it comes to saying no against having an onscreen relationship with a white woman I only know of two times that information regarding his reasons became public. There was of course his declining even a hint of intimacy with Julia Roberts in "Pelican Brief" even though Julia and the director were all for it. I thought it was a dumb decision but was in the end not that big of a deal. Anyone who has ever read the book know the two characters do become a couple but it only happens in like the last two pages of the novel when they are described as holding hands on a beach. So since the novel itself hardly dealt with a relationship (even though the male character was white), it was no big loss to the story that no such relationship was hinted at in the film version.

But the notorious Denzel "Just Say No (To White Chicks)" moment came from the movie "Virtuosity". It was a terrible film starring Denzel and Russel Crowe. Another star of the flick was leggy, blonde Kelly Lynch. It was Kelly Lynch who spilled the beans. In an interview she said that there was a relationship and a love scene in the script between her character and Denzel's. But again Denzel had TPTB nix the idea. Lynch said the reason he gave the producers and studio was that he was afraid of offending white male viewers with such an onscreen relationship.

Now I have mentioned this before on this forum a few times. I will keep on mentioning it every time someone tries to spin Denzel as having some nobel intent to do good by the black community. Even if that was his goal it still would have been a stupid one that would have only pointed out how fragile the self-confidence of the African American community was (one sex in particular). But apparently that wasn't his goal. Denzel simply didn't want to make the white boys mad. Gutless. I have read a few guys praise Denzel's business savvy by not offending white males or black females. I on the other hand see nothing but cowardice and a lack of risk taking that has shadowed his career (he's a great actor but 80% of his roles are easily forgettable). He could have helped break built up again barriers and taboos but Denzel is all about "dignity" and he equates that word to mean taking on safe rolls, starring in every other Tony Scott film, and staying away from those white women.

Of course one could suggest that Ms Lynch was lying but I tend to believe her. It fits Denzel's MO (ran away from the opportunity to star alongside Michelle Pheiffer in "Love Field"...and the love scene that was supposed to take place between his character and the mother in "Man on Fire? Well that surprisingly never made the film either...but, hey there was "He Got Game". Don't know how Spike bribed him into doing that). I doubt Lynch would put her career in jeopardy by lying about the guy. I have read essays about the castration of modern black men on the big screen. The guys writing liked to compare now to the blaxploitation era when the men were men. Personally I don't care much for those films but I have to concur that the black males of those films were sexually aggressive and upfront. Like, well, white guys in films. When one writer placed blame on guys like Will Smith and Sam Jackson my thought was that he should place blame at the feet of THE leading black matinee idol of the last 20 years; a guy who doesn't seem comfortable with exploring sexual urges on screen.

By the way Halle Berry was begging Denzel earlier this decade to do a film with her and Denzel always brushed off the idea when questioned about it. And yet he then whines about not being offered romantic comedies and romantic films. Please. He has spent most of his onscreen career being asexual even if the movie gives him an onscreen love interest.

 

As for Mr. LaSalle I went over this a couple of times as well. Don't fall for that bullshit. Fans of the show around that time have always called him out for that move, even many of us black fans. His character's relationship was considered by fans and the media as one of the best potential relationships not just on ER but on television. A buzz was growing about the pairing before LaSalle literally pulled the plug. The hole in his argument is that while his character was Benton was an ass to the black female he was involved with years earlier, it didn't stand out because his character was an ass to everyone else. Or at least Eric played him like an ass. A moody, detached asshole to be more specific. And most importantly he treated his white love interest like shit too much of the time. It wasn't as if he was all lovey dovey to her, all peaches and creams. He always had a wall up around him. That was who he was.

The white love interest, Corday, reached deeper inside him not simply because she was white. The writers did a great job establishing her as a somewhat quirky but irrepressible woman who was almost Benton’s equal as a surgeon. She cracked his shell because she refused to say no and she brushed off his slights and defensiveness better than anyone else in the hospital. They were opposites in so many ways (she was so positive and cheery; he was dour and introspective). Their pairing was genius and so effective that, to the producers’ surprise, all the hate mail they had braced themselves never came. And who sabotaged it before it became even more prominent? The black actor who was playing one half of the couple. Hollywood was ready to be bold but the black guy thought it would send a negative message to the black community. You know regardless of the countless opportunities white people get to be part of onscreen white relationships, if a white actor/actress had refused to take part of an IR relationship because of the negative message it would present, that person would have justifiably been branded by some as a racist. LaSalle thought he was taking some great social stand but he didn’t. He did fail however to be a bit of a trailblazer.

Ten or so years later one can correctly argue that that black couples are still rare on TV and film. Nonetheless when Omar Epps’ character of “House” gets involved with white chicks I don’t think it necessarily psychologically damages black women or the black community.

By the way once Benton and Corday broke up, TPTB of ER eventually brought on another black actress (Michael Michelle) to play his love interest, Chloe. Michelle is gorgeous but a bit stiff as an actress. She and LaSalle got along very well but had NO chemistry on TV. Their relationship was dull and forgettable. And the character of Benton acted like an ass around her too. So in the end what was the point? Maybe LaSalle was one note as an actor or maybe the writers chose to keep his character the same. Whatever it was if LaSalle wanted to see intimacy between black people then perhaps he should have requested the writers to make him appear, well, actually in love with Chloe rather than appearing as just barely tolerating her. They brought back a million former characters for ER’s final season but they never brought Chloe back even though her character was reportedly still with Benton (LaSalle must be so happy to know that a black couple has actually made it…even if it all occurs offscreen). Not only did the writers and producers not have any interest in Chloe, the fans apparently didn’t care either whether she made a final cameo. But TPTB did give Benton and Corday a couple of scenes in the final ep and all the blogs and writeups and message board chatter the following days brought up how the incredible chemistry between the two characters was still intact. But, hey, at least we know a potentially very good relationship was tossed out for a “greater” cause.

Blair Underwood had an IR relationship end on La Law too for similar reasons. Blair Underwood eventually wised up and realized he was limiting opportunities and possibilities by taking that stance. In an interview with Savoy he also pointed out how he came to noticed how reluctant Hollywood was to pair white women with black men in film. This guy is no self-loathing black man. He is an intelligent, black male activist who really cares about the African American community. Oh, yeah, he has been married to a black woman for about ten years now. But at lest he gets it now that who he sleeps wit on TV is not exactly going to lead to psychological damage of African Americans.


Well, at least black actresses are following the lead of Eric and Denzel and turning down opportunities to be paired with white leads for the sake and well-being of the community. Oh wait...

Smart girls. The black guys should grow a pair and follow their lead.

 

You do realize though that at his peak Sidney was viewed as a sellout by black folks in part because of his white wife and his onscreen white love interests? There was a backlash against him and when the blaxploitation era came about the guys in the lead roles were seen by black audiences as being totally opposite of Poitier. Poitier's popularity with the black audience would never fully recover. Read the biographies on him to learn more about this.

 

Exactly.

I'm a DC guy and The New Teen Titans was my drug as a child. I purchased some old issue of comic book interview magazines and came across a Marv Wolfman of George Perez interview in which this very issue was brought up. It was stupid. Some black guy wrote to Wolfman claiming that Cyborg (who I'm not even sure could sexually function) being in a relationship with a white female sent a destructive message to black people. :smt083 And Wolfman, like some dummy actually bought into it and put an end to the relationship despite most fans' objections (including my older sister who wasn't traumatized by the idea of a black guy and white gal hooking up as a sub-subplot of a goddamn comic book).

 

1)What does it matter as long as the black actors don't erase that link?

2)How many have actually had that link erased? Relatively speaking I'm guessing not many.

3)What about black actors and actresses who don't want to be tied down to the black community and want to make more of a splash with the mainstream audience?

4)How fucked up is it that an onscreen IR relationship can be seen as figurative eraser to such links?

5)Doesn't seem to bother the black actresses and the black community still accept them just fine (outside of Whoopi) despite their IR onscreen affairs? So why should black men be stuck with the role of protecting and promoting racial purity?

 

Jamal, good post but would like to point out few things.

1. Washington's character are not that forgettable.
Malkom X, Glory, Training day, Crimson tide, Inside man, deja vu, John Q, The great debaters, The Hurricane, Remember the Titans, Fallen, Devil in a Blue Dress, to name a few.

2. Denzel and Halle Berry are not of the same acting caliber. Washington should be coupled with a beautiful, elegant, and magnificent actress as his romantic interest

3. Denzel would not oppose to a romantic comedy with a beautiful and talented white actress but has not gotten the offer (I think I have seen some article on this a while back)

4. About La salle- ER was one of the hottest show back then. In fact, it was the #1 rated TV show in the country. During that era, there was not much IR going on in most sitcoms let alone in ER. La Salle's character was an intelligent, confident, strong and charismatic blk man. Who can forget Dr. Benton, he was a very notable character during that time. To couple Benton with a woman other than his race, especially with a white woman would have been a huge devastation to black women Psyche.
(big blow to their ego). It is almost like coupling Dr. Cliff Huxtable with a white woman. Therefore, coupling him with a blk woman made a whole lot of sense. There was also a rumor going around that La salle and the producers were pressured by blk community leaders to discontinue Benton and Corday's romance due to the above reason.

 

The older I get, the more I realize how brainwashed "black" people really are (no offense to anyone on here). IMHO (and one that would be super controversial), the fact that many black people hold their "black identity" in such high regard is evidence of this.

Black people are so brainwashed that someone like Derek Jeter is part of the same social category as Wesley Snipes; IMO, he looks a lot more like a Brad Pitt than a Wesley Snipes. Of course, white racists began that line of thinking, but too many blacks have accepted it too easily. Blackness is a social construct, not a physical one. Yes, you can see if someone has darker skin, but what really matters is the value and meaning attached to skin color.

Blackness (and everything that goes with it) is a state of mind, as is whiteness. It first came into being in the mid 17th century when the first anti-miscegenation laws were passed and when the first black people were legally made into lifelong slaves. Famously, creating a privileged white caste and an enslaved black caste was a great way to divide the populace to prevent Bacon's Rebellion from happening again. White people resented the fact that black slaves were fed by their masters and didn't have to look for employment, and black people resented the fact that whites were much more free. The very words "white" and "black/negro" are opposites. The naming of such groups was to create a natural opposition to each other. Whites were the opposite of blacks, and vice versa. Two opposing identities fighting each other, just like a chess game.

The fact that many "blacks" stick treasure their black identities just proves to me that we are a truly conquered people. We accept the same racial and social divisions handed to us by racist whites. IMO, true liberation is not embracing your blackness. For one thing, that construct, especially with the color coding, is meant to encourage opposition. Because if someone is black, then someone who is white has to be their opposite. And as long as this is the case, there will be racism and racial antagonism. The history of black/white relations in America ensures that there will always be racial conflict as long as the mindset of a black/white divide exists. If left unchecked, it can mature into a new Palestinian/Israelian style conflict with hatred and terrorism.

True liberation means abandoning the old structures of race. This means that we will have to unlearn centuries of conditioning by white slave owners and Jim Crow social/cultural/political authorities. This means that we have to destroy both blackness and whiteness. It is easier said than done, though, and won't happen overnight. What should be required knowledge for Americans are racial categories in other nations. Brazil, South Africa, the Middle East and North Africa, and many other places have very different demarcations and categories of blackness and whiteness. In some of the Arab world, for instance, the "one drop rule" is reversed; anyone who is not an unmixed black African is white/Arab. This has allowed for very black looking Arabs to come to the US and be classified as white, even at the height of Jim Crow. From the start of the US nation in 1776, there were many blacks who were exempt from racial maltreatment (slavery and Jim Crow) because they were classified as Arabs, Moors/Moroccans, etc.

So, to sum things up, you are not black because you have black skin...well partially. You are black because massa conquered you and beat it into you the same way the name Toby was beat into Kunta Kinte. The fact that black people today use the same categories and some of the same arguments for celebrating their blackness is testament to how badly conquered American blacks are. Racial classifications are not set in stone, and never have been; they have changed a lot through history, and many nations use totally different definitions. The American dichotomies of black and white were meant to encourage division and strife rather than brotherhood. I conclude that it is possible and in our best interest to get rid of those mental constructs. If you have dark skin, you will always have dark skin. But that does not make you "black" since it is purely a social construct that can be unlearned by individuals and by society.

 

One way to champion that link is to demand certain characteristics in the way that they're portrayed romantically onscreen. The rest of your questions fall into the dead horse category.

 

Thank you for your response, madscientist. At least you tried to explain the situation by exposing the silliness behind the so call "blackness" issue. The thing is, no one can really define it without spouting sheer nonsense. I saw The Colbert Report about 2 years ago, and some intellectual, a black woman, was trying to explain this silly "blackness" thing to Colbert while using Barack Obama as an example.

Meanwhile, former US President Bill Clinton, despite being Caucasian, has been called "the first Black president."

I remember a black girl telling me once" It's a black thang, I don't expect you to understand". I was bewildered and she told me outright, "You're not really black anyway".

 

Sorry but if I was too harsh towards Denzel then you are being way too generous. I'll give you Malcolm X, Glory, Training Day, and The Hurricane. Washington was nominated for Oscars for those roles. I can also go with Remember the Titans since that film may have been his greatest box office hit. And I'll give ya Cry Freedom (another nomination), Man on Fire, American Gangster and I suppose maybe Soldier's Story. But everything else? Meh. And even some of the characters that I'm conceding to be not necessarily forgettable I have to say still barely register as original complex, three dimensional people. I mean when you take away the real life people he played you are left with very few characters of his that truly register.

Again I'm picking on him a bit I suppose. I'll give him a bit of a break for having to deal with limitations of character choices because of his skin color. Still he has enough clout to at least get screenwriters to develop better more challenging material for him. But he's more than willing to settle for Tony Scott movies. Mr. Safe.

Paula Patton isn't in his acting range either or his age range. Yet he agreed to her casting in Deja Vu, Eve Mendes is a very limited actress. She's been with Denzel in two movies.

All I recall is his saying that he would love to be given a part in a romantic comedy. Don't recall him ever mentioning anything about the color of his leading lady in such a film. Who knows huh? But again with his money, clout, connections, he does not have to sit back and wait for such a script to be given to him. He can initiate such a script and have a movie developed specifically for his talent.

Okay now you're reaching. First of all as huge as ER was the vast majority of the country still didn't watch the show. It attracted probably just over 30 million viewers during its prime, the vast majority of those folks being white. It likely had a few milion black folks tuning in so even on that front you will only have a limited number of black folks being "subjected" to a Benton-IR storyline.

Of that select number of black folks, somewhere probably above 50% were black women. From that group I'm pretty sure only a small number would had their psyches devestated (and those that did probably needed mental help in the first place). Would many have disapproved and been pissed off? Absolutely. But give credit to most of them. The majority of that group would have not lost their minds. Again the ER producers stated they didn't get the negative reaction they were expecting in the form of letters and calls to the networks. Black women have been known to be somewhat vocal when such IR pairings popped up but again the ER folks did not get too much negative feedback.And, no, the folks running the show never mentioned any pressure they got from black community leaders. Nothing. The main producer wanted to keep the relationship going. But the show droped it rather quickly he said out of respect to Eric whom reportedly would not budge on his stance whatsoever. TV shows don't always bow to the wishes of stars but I'm pretty sure white network execs felt kind of nervous about a black man claiming that it was important from a racial perspective for the relationship to not continue; particularly when that black man was one of the leading characters on the series. Since execs tend to not be almost exclusively white they are at times too willing to accept the opinion of one black person of importance (in this case LaSalle) as the overall opinion of black America.

By the way this storyline of ER took place about ten years ago, not forty. So when you write "during that era" you are essentially talking about this era we are in now. Since that time the past ten years such relationships have popped up on screen and yet black folks have survived. Just look at House. Its another medical show and it has a distant black doctor as well. And from what I've been told his character has dated almost exclusively white women. And yet I know more black folks who watch that show than I ever did those who watched ER. Of course that's not exactly a scientific sample but the point remains that House had a sizable black following. There are probably black women and men who stopped watching because of who Omar Epps' character sleeps with. But it appears most black viewers have stuck with the show.

Last of all hooking up Benton with Corday is not even in the same ballpark as casting a white actress to play the wife of Dr Huxtable. Its not even on the same continent. The Cosby Show was about a black family whom any family could supposedly relate to. It debut over 20 years ago (definitely a different era) and was THE show for Black America (and much of white America) during its run. It was created and produced by a black man and it had black writers. Claire and Cliff were the center of the show in each episode unlike Benton and Corday. Most black Americans viewed the show regularly, the same can not be said for ER. It intentionally try to project an image of positive black characters and a positive, middle class black family. Its method of entertaining and its goals were vastly different than ER's. I don't know how you make that comparison.

 

Says the man whose points are typically dead on arrival. You really don't have anything worthwhile to say or anything insightful to share. You simply attempt to put down folks with quick hit and run responses or with the typically childish pictures you paste to the screen. And you never make a good argument. Your response is typically "I'm right and those that disagree with me are delusional". Which is why most of your "wit" goes unappreciated here I guess. But don't worry, we'll continue to have our conversations and share our thoughts even if they don't meet your approval. In the meantime you can keep collecting more images to place in your photobucket scrapbook.

 

Actually neither of you were generous enough. Subtract Man of Fire, then add Mo' Better Blues, Mississippi Masala, Philadelphia, Crimson Tide, Devil in a Blue Dress, He Got Game, Awtone Fisher and Inside Man.

Which means that among his better roles he's played in a soldier in the 1940's and the Civil War era, two legendary civil rights leaders, a corrupt LAPD officer, a NYC detective, a working class Southerner who develops a romantic relationship with an Indian woman, a wrongly imprisoned boxer, a drug lord, an incarcerated man on furlough, a Philadelphia lawyer, a 1940's gumshoe, and in the near future he'll play a hero in a post-apocalyptic world.

And sorry for mentioning Mississippi Masala. We know that it really isn't a challenging role unless his romantic interest is white. :roll:

 

CBQ's brand of sarcasm is so edgy that if you can't hear her voice, or if you breeze through her posts out of context, you could miss the point.

Having read a lot of her posts, I can "hear" what she is saying.

She is clearly being sarcastic here guys, and saying that there is no way these men could be perceived as anything but 100% black regardless of who they are involved with romantically.

I deal with this all the time in my personal life. Just because I am married to a WW, I am no less a black man, and proud of being one, than the next (black) guy.

 

You're obviously getting subject matter mixed up with character. I love Mississippi masala. The subject matter may be fascinating, the storyline may be well done and unique. But Denzel's character, even if he's a working class joe, was not that complex or interesting. The standout character was the woman's father who still hand't gotten over being kicked out of his country during Idi's reign. The baggage he held onto and had to eventually let go was the one example of true character complication and character growth in the entire film.

I guess I offended some huge Denzel fans. Mo Better Blues? Half baked film and Denzel wasn't that interesting. Devil In A Blue Dress? Disappointing movie for those that loved the book and Denzel's Easy barely registered compared to Cheadle's Mouse. Crimson Tide? Entertaining film. But that's a memorable character to you? Do we lower the standards for black characters or something? That character was less interesting than Daniel Day Lewis' left pinkie in "There Will Be Blood".

I'll give you "Philadelphia". That was the more challenging role, the more complicated role than Tom Hanks' naked but tame attempt at an Oscar. "He Got Game"? The movie is so uneven that I can't recall if the role itself was actually good. But I'm not buying the Antwone Fisher (his supporting role hardly registers) and Inside Man (wow, another cop role that does not explore anything new) picks. Those are very good movies indeed but Denzel's characters aren't anything special.

Some of you need to get away from your typical Hollywood, mainstream popcorn flick viewing and try something more challenging from time to time if you actually think the characters you're suggesting are indeed memorable.

 

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant.

 

And one of those certain characteristics is that they only date Black Women?

Seriously, I have yet to see you justify this point, aside from suggesting that there are not enough positive representations of monoracial couples onscreen -- one of those "common knowledge" bullshit arguments that neither you nor anyone else is able to back up even with anecdotal evidence.

I'd like to see you try to show how there are more representations of ww/bm onscreen than bm/bw, and I'd like to see you try to explain why a disproportionate number of ww/bm portrayals, if such a thing existed, would be negative.

Of course, I doubt you'll explain either argument, because I don't think you have the courage of your convictions here. I think you are parroting stuff you've heard before, and don't really want to think about it any deeper.

In which case, you should just concede and stop wasting people's time trying to distract with endless posts about your Denzel fandom, which has nothing to do with any part of this topic.

 

I feel like I'm being cross-examined by a bad TV lawyer who only learned how to lead the witness.

First, the issue isn't whether the portrayed relationships are exclusively with black women, but what the quality of said relationships are. The issue that Eriq LaSalle raised, if you bothered to pay attention, was that it didn't sit well with him to have his relationships with black women be toxic, then somehow have the toxicity mitigated upon meeting a white woman.

Second, it's a professional position not a peer-reviewed study. No amount of raising the bar to prove the validity of your point is going to change that, and at least one of the actors has verbally expressed his reasons in an interview. I support their decision(s) because personal experience has given me intimate knowledge of both sides and I am an advocate for the love between a black man and woman as well.

 

Yes. That's already been dismissed by several posters here as a completely inaccurate representation of the show. It also doesn't apply to Denzel, at all.

What a lot of blather. Did anything in there have a point? Not all opinions are equal: some are stupid. If you can't defend yours, if in fact you won't defend yours, it's probably because you caught one of the stupid ones.

Your position, as stated in this thread, is that it is justifiable for a Black actor to prefer never to be portrayed in an IR couple, because there are not enough portrayals of monoracial Black couples in entertainment.

If you are going to take that position, you should be prepared to explain why you think such an imbalance matters, where such an imbalance exists, and why you think the portrayal of monoracial Black couples is important.

You whine and whine about me interrogating you, but you can't answer direct questions about things that you have said. If you could just say "I think portrayals of monoracial Black couples are more important to the Black Community than IR ones, because ultimately those couples are more positive" or "There's nothing wrong with IR per se, but it's a deviation from the Black Community, and it cuts bonds that are important", or "White Hollywood is always trying to deemphasize Black actors, and I believe that being portrayed in an IR relationship makes a Black actor seem less Black" at least you'd be honest. Full of shit, yes, but honest.

Why would say what you've said if you don't believe it? And if you believe it, why can't you defend it?