Aborting your husband 's child

I stayed on at school till a couple days before I gave birth.

It's funny - because I was going around with a bump a couple girls would call me a slut, yet because they aborted their child somehow that doesn't make them a slut?

Nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in.

 

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. But dogmatic opinions aren't beneficial.
Try chatting with a couple of rape victims and ask if toddling over for a morning after pill was the first thing on their mind, even if it is adminstered, it is not fail safe.

It is a fruitless argument because people don't budge on this issue.

Though I don't agree with the way he puts it, I'm with bmj on this one.

Problem with pro life lobbyists is that they have made their choice, but they often believe other people aren't entitled to theirs.

Sarah, I commend your rationality.

 

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying you are arguing for further combination of church and state? Since your belief that you are entitled to is a religious one, is your argument that others, who are also worthy and entitled to their beliefs, should be punished by the state by not choosing to follow a particular religious tenet?

How different does that make the US then, to all the 'oppressive' countries that are supposedly the enemies of freedom to you guys?

Where does it stop?

 

Sorry, am I the only one who didn't miss this?
Becuase you know, having arguments with violence usually works out supper well.

Maybe you would know some the people on a case I helped research once who got sent to jail after they bombed an abortion clinic and two members of a family walking to the shops were killed.

 

I doubt that you're the only one who didn't miss it. You have a problem with capital punishment but feel it's okay to kill a child (or "fetus" if it makes you feel better :roll if the woman feels like it? Seems kind of hypocritical to me.

Yea, that makes a lot of sense. That I would know some of the people on a case you helped research because they bombed an abortion clinic. :roll:

 

And what makes you think I care whether they are dogmatic or beneficial? They are my opinions and I'll have them either way.

So kill a child because of what the owner of the sperm did? Well, I don't feel it's right, that's my opinion that I will keep. You can hate it or love it. It's not my concern.

Yep, I know it. I do regret some things I typed and "how" I typed them. But, sometimes, I can't control myself. It's something I feel passionate about. But what can ya do, right? I'm over it. Would really like to move on, but have a hard time ignoring words addressed to me.

I'm sure that happens to everyone once and a while regarding their feelings on certain matters. Not just pro life lobbyists.

Yea, she's a good girl.

 

Actually, if you think about it you will see the logic aligns. Because capital punishment and criminalizing abortion have the same theme- extreme use of a sovereign body's power to regulate people according to religious tenets- ie no separation of church and state.

If you mean sentenced to death, you should say that. Murder is a different issue, apparently. Obviously, with my throwaway comment about the clinic I was being facetious, probably uncessarily so.

You clearly want to affect change. If you want an outcome, then being dogmatic (I believe) does not help because it prevents you from rationally considering the other party's logic, which is necessary in order to negotiate firmly for your own posiiton.

 

I prefer to think of it as a moral issue not religious. Is it religious if you feel people shouldn't "play God" and because of that view, you appose the death penalty?

Anyway, just so you're clear, the Constitution of the United States does not guarantee any "Separation of Church and State" it only makes it so we cannot be ruled by organized religion.

That doesn't mean individual religious and cultural views must be opposed because they may be based in a religious belief. That is one of the biggest miss-conceptions about our constitution that even American Citizens seem to have. We are a government of the people, by the people and for the people. If we prefer morally sound laws we will vote them in, IT's OUR GOVERNMENT!

When abortion was mandated to be legalized by Federal judges they took our right to vote on it, as individual States away. That's why many Americans want to reverse Roe vs. Wade, and give that right back to the States. That means our views despite their origins, religious or otherwise, will be heard. That's what makes America Different.

Ahora, si intiendes?

 

Yes, I understand it isn't mandated by the constitution, that's why I didn't say that it was. I was referring more to generally held principals of good democratic governance. Because constitutions are, by their very nature, an 'archaic' document that cannot be easily modified it is sometimes important to codify protections that may not exist in the constitution itself.

I respect your opinion, I am just concerned that the tenet of the thread would result in judgement of others who have chosen to make another decision.

I don't judge you personally for your opinion even though I don't agree with it, and if you extend the same to others all is fine- we have civilized society in action.

The discussions are important, anyway, because good law can only be made with genuine debate of two opposing sides. I also respect your willingness to display strength for what you feel is right.

peace and best wishes for the festive season.

 

Toomer's ex-wife apparently had an agenda from the very beginning and that was to remain with him for a certain period of time, then sue for divorce and skip off with a bundle of money and no "excess" baggage. She probably did not want biracial children plain and simple. The fact that she was in charge of his charitable foundation dedicated to underprivileged children and would not dispense funds is quite telling IMO.

 

I jumped out of this discussion coz I've had it before with american pro-lifers, and there is no point what so ever discussing the subject. Obviously the pro-lifers are happy to bomb, kill, threaten and so on people who don't agree with them, and people who use terrorist actions (YES, it is terrorist actions to bomb an abortion clinic, killing people who by law has done nothing wrong.) to get what they want, is not people you can sit down and reason with.

If you think women who makes an abortion should have a capital punishment, you obviously don't care about life. And yes, I do care about life, it's just that our definition is somewhat divided. A foetus cannot live outside the mother. As long as it can't it is not a living person. It is alive, yes, but it isnt a child. A cell is alive, bacteria is alive, viruses are alive, but very seldom you hear ppl running around screaming "redrum redrum" when somebody gets antibiotics.
I care about human life, and the right to your own body.
And I'm pretty damn happy that I live in a country that agrees with me.

I think you have the absolute right to say "I think it's murder and I would never do it", because thats your choice. But I do NOT think you have the right to decide for others what is right or wrong. pro-choise, not pro-death. I give you the right to have your own opinion and you give me the right to have mine.
If you call people who makes an abortion Murderers, I'll call you ignorant terrorists. So, are we even now?

I don't even know why I even care about this discussion. The issue here is more if we should let people from our neighbouring countries make abortions here or not. They have harscher laws then us. (poland, so on)
For me this is just weird. In my corner of the world, pro-lifers are a small and quiet minority and when they DO make sounds, there is public uproar and people go over themselves to get them to shut up.

I'm gonna quote a bit from a pro-choice facebook group. (there is one called pro-choice, anti-abortion, with the tagline: "against abortions? Don't have one" the quotes are not from that one however but from "her body, her choice"):

On why a citizens rights are put before the so called rights of the "unborn baby":
"Good point ----. And federal documents don't define our humanity, but they do define our rights as a citizen/human. Fetuses have not earned their citizenship because they are not independent of their mother. The mother should be the number one priority, because she owns her body. IF she continues the pregnancy, she is allowing that child to use her body. If she doesn't want it to, then she has the right to abort it. No one, not even fetuses, have the right to use a woman's body against her will."

Further down on the same topic:
"Why is it a choice to terminate another living being regardless of where it comes from or its location."

"Location" is an intentionally broad, and therefore intentionally deceptive term: the "location" of a knife is the difference between an armed man and a killer. If "location" was the only matter, then you would argue that intact extractions should replace abortion for all voluntary abortion procedures, which would have identical net results for the fetus -- termination -- while increasing the level of risk that the woman would undergo. The "location" of the fetus is critical while it is inside a woman's body against her will, just as the location of a rapist's penis is a critical issue when it is inside a woman against her will. For the thousandsth time, YES, for the sake of clarity in demonstration and relationship in biological processes, the hypothetical rapist was just made analogous to the hypothetical fetus IN ACTION, NOT INTENT. Intent is irrelevant. If an unconscious person has fallen on you, you CANNOT be denied the right to separate yourself from them, even if doing so will somehow cause them to die. Basic self-defense. You own your body and all the parts therein; this means a woman owns her uterus AND has the right to separate herself from anyone or anything using it against her will, even if it means killing in self-defense to do so."

source:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=logo#/topic.php?uid=2207413032&topic=7093

This is what pro-lifers are willing to do:
Quoting wikipedia: "Incidents of violence have ranged from the destruction of property, in the form of vandalism, arson, and bombings, to kidnapping, stalking, assault, attempted murder, and murder. A recent act was an arson at an abortion clinic in Albuquerque, New Mexico on December 6, 2007."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence
You just love life, don't you..

 

Most Pro-Lifers have nothing to do with these groups any more than most Muslims do with supporting terrorism. I do not condone these acts in any way and I would never do any such thing, and I don't personally know a pro-lifer who would.

Well that's exactly the reason that she should have no right to kill it. Sorry my dear it doesn't mean that it isn't a child. At what point do you think it becomes a child? You see, like I said I draw the line at conception you may draw it at 16 weeks or something but what if she has her dates off, that happens a lot you know, and as science advances children live at earlier and earlier births.

No, but in America we have the right to make laws in our State as to what we believe to be morally right or wrong. And the argument is not that I try to make it wrong for you morally, but that I want it to be illegal in America, and I do not take kindly to having millions of young uneducated women lied to by planned parenthood so as to rack up business, and then those women suffer the rest of there life from the psychological issues of having killed their own unborn child.

Taking an innocent life is murder, whether you like the definition or not. You can call those who bomb abortion clinics terrorists if you like but if you are calling me one, then you're wrong, but I really don't care what some pro-death, European, bi-sexual woman calls me anyway.

Then stop trying to argue something you don't even know why you care about, until you do care, you see, that's where we differ. I do know why I care!!

 

Yes, but until there is a constitutional amendment that we the people can vote on, then we the people have the right to make those decisions.

I don't judge anyone, but final moral judgments will be made by God on judgment day, and the people I know and care about will be notified by me as to what they may stand judgment for if I feel they are at risk, because I do not want them to stand judgment on that day.

Have any opinion you want, mine isn't an opinion it's much more of a conviction or a deep seated belief. So I don't care if you disagree, but I do care that others know there is another side to the argument.

You are absolutely right, I agree that these discussions are very necessary! You see in America, the law wasn't made after healthy discussion and a good general vote on the subject, it was implemented by a panel of judges who did not have the right to do so. That's where the argument lies, and will continue to lie until we can get that right back to the states.

 

Good, now I was aiming this post at Britty the most since she just called every one who ever made an abortion a murderer and said she wanted them to die.

Do a person have the right to defend themselves from something using their body without their consent?
There is a reason why you can't make an abortion here (in sweden) after week 18 without special reasons. And yes, you can get your dates wrong, but I'm pretty sure your doctor can straighten that out for you.

Educating young girls on their rights is not the same as trying to make profit of them.
There is also no link between depression and abortion. Yes, some people regret it, and some people don't.

The person who said that women who makes abortions are murderers are the one I called that. To emphazise on the complete absurdity on what she said. Not you.
Yes, I'm european, yes, I'm bisexual. I find it very interesting that you say these two things as they were a bad thing. But yes, I'm quite the horrible person. EUROPEANS, well, we all know what they're like, nudge nudge.

Pro-death? Well, if wanting to have the right to decide what happens in my own body makes me pro-death. Then sure.

Fair enough, I'm Pro-death! I want to kill all children. Yey!

I thought about it a bit. And I still don't know why I care. I guess it's because I think that every womans right to her body is important.

Really, if you, on this thread who is pro-life, would care to go through all these pregnancies and then take care of all the children, or AT LEAST adopt them after they are born if the mothers can't take care of them.. so I can respect you?

 

Well I'm defending her, unless she has personally bombed a clinic, I agree that it's murder, we just differ on the possible penalty at present, I do agree with capital punishment for murderers in general though, but we would have to make it illegal first.

Not against a child who did not intentionally do anything to harm her! Absolutely not! That's the way I believe!

I've had Doctors give me wrong dates up to 4 weeks off, so that doesn't hold true. It wasn't discovered until much later in the pregnancy.

Education is only real education when it is showing both sides of the argument, and Planned Parenthood where I live does not do that. They tell the woman, it's a fetus and not a life, they do not show the different stages of gestation, and they do not discuss other options. And they do charge a lot for an abortion.

And Yes there is a lot of depression and even suicide linked to abortion here in America. I personally know at least 2 women who had abortions and have had very difficult times afterwards.

Well like I said, I'm defending her, (IT IS MURDER) and you did refer to all pro-lifers a number of times in your post.

I linked 3 thinks, because I wanted to show you just how very different we are and I have no need to care about what you think. You live thousands of miles from me, what I care about really doesn't effect you, nor do your opinions effect me. Your life choices are completely foreign to me, and I'm not trying to change that.

I did not say you were horrible. You seem to really like that term. I also did not say you wanted to kill all children, just the inconvenient ones that we can't see, and no one has had the time or opportunity to grow attached to because they haven't yet had a chance to show themselves. That is still a pro-death stance and the slippery slope of Euthanasia follows, along with assisted suicide and a whole bunch more. Where does it end?

Hmm, this really doesn't compare to her being invaded by an unwanted penis, really, this is a life, of it's own, and this little life has no choice to not be there, nor is it intentionally invading her "body", she made her choice when she put it there.

Most pro-lifers would do anything they had to do to help a woman in a crisis pregnancy. I have done that for quite a few people. I have not personally adopted any kids, but I do plan to do so some day. I also have helped many women learn how to be mothers. I've helped them get started.

 

Tink>

I actually think assisted suicide should be legal.. so well, lets just not go there. I mean, its my body, if I want to die and someone is willing to help me, they shouldn't be punished.

and yeah, I sorta like the word horrible. Mostly because english is my second language and I do not know that many synonyms. But yeah. I like it.

I hope you somewhere understand that if somebody calls everybody in the group you advocate murderers, then it actually gives me damn fits and the right to react quite harschly.

Off course they should be showing both sides of the argument. But are you willing to let them? Since you want it to be illegal, i can't really see that as allowing both sides to talk for themselves.

 

If it is legal for them to operate they should do so as ethically as possible. If I sell a car and do not disclose the known issues the car has I can be held legally liable. Abortion clinics should be held to at least that much of a standard. If a Doctor performs a surgery he has to show the dangers of it, even remote dangers, and if you buy medicine it tells all the possible known side effects. Yes they should at least have to tell both side honestly.

Yes, I would prefer it to be illegal, but mainly I want to have the right to vote on the mater, and prior to said vote I would like to see a blitz of education and discussion on the matter. Then when America speaks people usually leave it along, until then I will argue it heatedly. If Americans chose to make it legal, I will still counsel individuals against it, and I sure hope if Americans chose to make it legal we could implement legislation that would require very close monitoring of things, including the way the clinics present the options.

 

Yep us damn Europeans, bothersome, bothersome, bothersome and our crazy womens rights notions:roll:

Religion and Goverment can't go together, chalk and cheese, like in a previous post if your against abortions just dont have one, so very simple

 

This thread is really going no where.