WM/BW Senario - Thoughts Please!!!

WM/BW Senario - Pattern or Prejudice...Help for a better Understanding!!!

Recently I believe I have experienced a form of prejudice from a WM I have known for sometime (yes we are dating), and to say the leaset I am quite surprised and shocked that as intelligent and amazing that he has shown me he is, the side of him I see now, makes me wonder if he has issues in relation to IR (Interacial) dating.

See if you can help me out. Here is the scenerio...

He is an Italian man raised in White America. He has been exposed and socialized with many different races/ethnicities throughout his personal life, work life and community. Both of his parents are Italian decent and very educated. He also is very educated, worldly and open-minded. He is well traveled, diversed in his approach to life and thought and has many different types of friends. He has dated many ethnicities. He also says his parents taught him to appreciate the beauty in All woman from the inside out and not outside in.... So, so far I agree with this and it meshes with my beliefs... Well I am a BW very attractive, educated and well traveled also. Our compatiablity physically and mentally is off the chart in every way and we generally for the most part have the same views, morals and beliefs about life, people, family, philosiphies etc... up until now.

This is where it gets tricky...He has recently asked me a series of questions about my dating relationships, my experiences experiences (how many men I have dated, if I slept with them or not, how many were of 1 race or another and how many men I slept with from that race/background) you get the picture. So being a confident BW and knowing who I am in total, I answered honestly and openly. I explained to him that I date or have had relationships with men I am attracted to on a intellectual, compatibility, emotional and spiritual level, whether black (which is socially accepted due to I am black), hispanic or any other man I felt the connection with and that the color (black) was never a determining factor as to why I slept with them or not. I am not in any way drawn to a man by the color of his skin. I believe that men are far more appealing and have so much more to offer than just the skin color. At the end of the day we ALL just want to be liked/loved/cherrished for who we are. Anyway, so to his surprise when he wanted the numbers and he got them... he made his calculations/deductions and answered, he was like WOW..."You have only slept with White men and not any other race", don't you think you lean towards WM more than your own race"? I said who cares what it looks like and how many I have been with, I have based my experieneces with each individual just as that, on an individual bases and what I experienced and felt with that particular person. " I have dated different types (short,tall, black, white, pick, blue, fat, thin etc) of men in my life and according to what played out in each relationship I acted accordingly...which is only right so what's the big deal? So now we get to the numbers... 25 men in total I have dated...15 were BM and 10 were white, for all that cant count that's 25 in all (lol). I was intimate with all of them to some level, but I only slept with 7 which were white men and no other men in my life. Now the conversation has turned to insulting, badgering (because we have discussed this more than once by him bringing it up), accusatory and assulting to my character.
Since I dont view the world/people like he does with the break down of (Black and White) and I view them just as "People of the World" he feels that there is a PATTERN in my behavior and that I may have some issues with BM as to why I didn't get to the point of intimacy of sleeping with them (intercourse) and that the others who were WM and I was intimate with did not get the chance. Hmmm what a thought, and definately another way to look at it. I love All men, but I LOVE A GOOD MAN!

Now this is what I feel... This man has known me for just over a year, he knows and has experienced my heart, knows I don't act on impulse, that am very rational in thought and actions, I use my feelings in my heart to guide me with people, I dont judge people when it comes to their beliefs, backgrounds, education, culture, financial status etc.. and that I believe that people are who they are, no more or less. Sometimes, there can be obvious and underlying issues that people can carry negative baggage from their upbringing or past experieneces into their present life which can determine their state of being... but not all the time. It is unfair to generalize and put everyone in a hole just because you have had a bad or poor experience. We all have a choice in how to look at life, experience, people and such...Either your eyes are open or you use blinders. It's up to you. I feel that people have differnet opinions and views and we should all be treated equally and fairly as individuals. That no one opinion is right or wrong or good or bad. We don't have to agree all the time nor see the same point of view. (We can Agree to disagree)... Isn't that what makes each of us beautiful in our own right?...The uniqueness of each one of US as INDIVIDUALS. Accept people just as they are with all of who they are regardless of how they got there. Now don't get me wrong, I feel there can be a physical attraction that can be based on looks only...but take away the color. We all have preferences/appeal we may lean towards certain attributes (do you like tall men, short woman, big busted woman, men with hair, muscular men, thin men, bootylisious women/men, corporate look, that rough bad boy image or the clean cut look and many many others) it is all a preference right? But this to me is the view of a very shallow person if that is all you look at.

So question...What do you think of this situation? Do you think that he has issues with himself of insecurity or prejudice and of what may or maynot be accepted in society today, or anything else that may be far deeper than I can see OR is it truely just about the numbers of what he knows about me (that I have only slept with 7 WM and 0 BM) and that I may have a problem with my own race/ethnicity? And that when looking at the overwelming percentage of the numbers in question is so obvious That's the bottom line...!

Now this does not mean I dont understand what may appear to be obvious to him or others, but I do believe not everything is exactly as what it looks like and that if you only go on mere facts/numbers you will never find the truth in what lies deeper. In order to find the truth or the sum of all, you must have all the variables in place right? Then you are able to determine what is your TRUTH as you see it. Not everything is Black or White and 2 + 2 may not always equal 4, it could equal 2 since there are only 2 numbers. Hmmm. A woman/man is not Beautiful/Handsome or Sexy just because they stand there in a nice outfit, they become beautiful/handsome/ or sexy when you look at them as a whole person and knowing what you know of them and you like them as a person. So you see, there is always more to the obvious that just what it appears to be on the surface.

Go ahead and take the Poll, send me a reply and be honest in your answers OK....You will not offend me! I am doing this to get a better understanding and awareness of who he is as a man/person and his thought process. Not to bash him in anyway. We all have our right to our thinking whether we agree or not.

 

:smt108Lemme see, you've dated 25 men...slept with 7 of 10 White men and 0 out of 15 Black men.

Hmmm...

1) Why didn't you sleep with any of the BM?:smt017

2) Did you say "assaulting"?:smt092 If so, you need to bounce.

3) If he sees things in black and white, then this description of him: "He over a course of time has appeared to be very educated, worldly and open-minded. He says his parents taught him to appreciate the beauty in All woman from the inside out and not outside in. He is well traveled, diversed in his approach to life and thought and has many different types of friends" might be waaaaay off.:smt012

 

Sorry to hear you went through this.

I don't think I explicitly got this from your post......but are you actually dating this man, or are you close friends (with implicit, unexpressed feelings of attraction towards each other)?

In either case, it sounds like he's worried (and yes, feeling insecure) about the possibility....or lack thereof....of a future with you. He's probably thinking that even if you take things to the next level, it won't be for him as a person, but due to the sheer fact that he's white.

I realize that may not be what you're about, but it doesn't sound like he's convinced. If he really matters to you, then you may want to make a few more attempts at driving the point home.

But......echo-ing LUCIFERMORNINGSTAR......if the man assaulted you, then you need to drop him like a bad habit!

 

Assaulting...

When I said Assaulting...by this I mean he is assaulting my character not beating me up. lol As a strong and confident BW I would not allow that.

Now as to the way it makes me feel....knowing exactly who I am and what I am about., I feel insulted that he knows quite well and that I have been consistent in all my actions and my words coincide with those actions, he has never seen anything from me that would imply the above, assaulted my character to imply I am another type of woman other than who I am and who I have showed him to be.

And to adress why I didn't sleep with any of the black men...it was due to what i found out about them, whether they cheated, lied or other is how I based whether I got closer to them on that more intimate level. It just happened to that I slept with the overwhelming race (as he would put it) were WM, whether it was due to being naive, gullable or not as knowledable or even that they had better game and concealed who they really were better than the one's who got caught.

As I mentioned, I moved emotional along with my actions according to what that relationship, experience in that relationship presented at the time. We chose to get deeper involved due to circumstance within a relationship not because of the color of the person's skin.

"Oh yes he is white let me go and sleep with him before the black man". Now how stupid and ridiculous does that sound and look in "Black and White"!!! ha

I am moved and attracted by substance, character and emotion of an individual. I guess to each his own right!

Just to clarify it all.

 

He's being stupid. If he's got a problem with you only sleeping with white men, he may be feeling threatened in a way. Men in general tend to gravitate towards women who are more "pure". My ex husband (a white guy) wouldn't have looked at me twice had I slept with anyone before him, and he had deep issues. Maybe the guy is feeling that since he isn't your first white guy that he doesn't want to deal with that. I've had black guys get put off when they found out my ex boyfriend is black. Seems they wanted to be my first black man, I guess. So perhaps he's feeling like that.

Regardless, the way he is behaving over this is stupid, and you don't need someone acting all crazy like that just because you've only slept with white guys. Honestly, it should make him feel more secure. The problem with dating interracially is that a lot of people on both sides tend to feel threatened by men/women of the same race as their significant other, always afraid they'll take them away because they have more in common. Not always, of course, but I've noticed it before in people. So in your situation the guy should feel better, but instead it seems to be a problem.

It screams insecurity to me, honestly. But I'm not a guy, so I can't speak for sure as to what he's feeling, but that's what it says to me. Honestly, girl, I'd say just go after someone else. A loser isn't determined by his bank account or education, I call a loser any guy who acts stupid for no good reason. And this one has loser written all over him, if he can't take the information you gave him in stride and give you a shot.

Find a better one! There are plenty of great guys out there, don't waste your time on someone who can get so hung up on petty things like that.

 

Completely agree with disposableheroine. Just to give the man the benefit of the doubt, possibly the mere discussion of past partners made him uncomfortable and he over-reacted? But even if that's the case and he apologizes for jumping to conclusions he has still shown his true colors. Is that the sort of man you'd want to continue to date?

 

I am giving him the benifit of the doubt only because I take in consideration ALL of who HE is and what I have seen him to be as a whole person and not just because of this topic. The lack of understanding on his part in reference to this topic is not the accummilation of who he is as a whole person.

I do believe that people can change their views, opinions and outlook in life, they can learn new things and I hope and pray that in time he will see it and me differently, only because he has made it a point and makes the effort to know me the person as a whole. Remember, the way we thought when we were 20 is not the way we think or thought when we are 30 or 40. I hope as people we EVOLVE all the time but then again I am very aware that there are people who are just set in their ways.

So we shall see what transpires, but this is good to get this feed back whether it is negative or positive. I am open to being aware of All the views and possibilties out there. It's just who I AM.

 

Giving someone the benefit of a doubt can also set yourself up.

If I were in your shoes, and this were a man I was interested in, I don't think I could handle it. To me that's a red flag that either says he has issues with race, or just plain isn't comfortable with the sexual partners you've had, whether it be the color or number of them.

One view doesn't make an entire person, but one view can be enough to ruin a possible relationship. I doubt you'd be worrying about him if his view had been one you considered racist instead, and I also doubt you'd be talking about how people can change if that were the case. Perhaps I'm wrong, and if I am I apologize, but this is the feeling I get.

The thing about people is...yes, they can change, but only if they want to. Going into a relationship hoping someone will change, or trying to get them to, is ridiculous. Change only happens when an individual wants it, and what if he doesn't want it? Or doesn't see the need?

If he valued you as much as you appear to value him it would've been a nonissue from the beginning. He wouldn't have reacted so badly to your information. But he did. People's reactions to us and our statements gives us the chance to get a little insight into them. My ex boyfriend used to say ridiculous things, and when I'd ask him why I'd always get the response "I just wanted to see what you'd say". It puzzled me, and to an extent still does considering the things he chose to say, but in a way I can see why. It was his way of figuring me out without blatantly asking me questions, which would've been easier, but he never did anything the easy way.

Anyway, I went off on a tangent. My point is...in these moments when we react strongly to some sort of information we're letting our walls down for a moment, and letting those who witness a good look at who we are inside. You may believe he's a great person all around, but this could instead be the real him coming out. What you're forgetting in all your wisdom is that sometimes people lie, and sometimes people hide things from us. I've known people for years only to realize after a long time I never really knew them at all. Sometimes it's due to change, and sometimes it's due to the person hiding their true nature.

I'm not saying he's a liar, and that he's evil, etc, etc. All I'm saying is that if it were me in your shoes I wouldn't wait around to find out just how far his ill feelings about the race of the men you've slept with go. To me, if a man has a problem with the fact that I've slept with black or white guys, then he's obviously not the man for me, because I require a more open mind than that.

You said in the first post that you feel you've experienced prejudice. Do you really want to explore a relationship with someone you know has at least some racial prejudice? Because I certainly wouldn't want to. It can go deeper than that and you may not know it.

Anyway, you asked for our opinions, so I gave mine.

 

This is what I said.....I do believe that people can change their views, opinions and outlook in life, they can learn new things and I hope and pray that in time he will see it and me differently, only because he has made it a point and makes the effort to know me the person as a whole. Remember, the way we thought when we were 20 is not the way we think or thought when we are 30 or 40. I hope as people we EVOLVE all the time but then again I am very aware that there are people who are just set in their ways.

When I mention effort in the above, it does imply they want to make some sort of change or atleast try and see a differeent view. You can not fault someone for making an effort, you give them the opportunity to do so.

As to hope and pray he will see me differently in time....is giving him the opportunity to learn more about me if he choses too. I am a Optimist and not a Pessamist....I go into to all situations believing the good in people. I do not take one situation over a total of a year and view it as a whole but as part of the bigger picture. I dont jump the gun either...but I am also very aware and wise enough to know that peoples true colors come out over time and not over one incident or topic that may be uncomfortable or lack acceptance or understanding to both parties. That is being OPEN. That would also be unfair and contradictory of whom I am and that would make me no better than the one who is judging me whether he has issues of predijuce, insecurity or someother underlying issue. You are right, he could be lying, I dont know, but is 1 incident going to sway me to think he is. NO. People can be very dis-honest and hide who they truely are for a while but again do I or will I base 1 incident and make that a definitive answer as to how I proceed to view him or act towards him. NO again.
It just makes me aware and somewhat cautious in regards to his makeup, views or such.


But I appreciate your honesty, but like I said before...there are some people who are affected by their experiences of the past and bring them into present relationships and that those negative experiences have no relavence to the present and then there are some who don't. We are all learning, and when you are open to learn more about yourself and others you can create or encourage an Open Heart and Mind. That is not wanting or making the person change that is believeing that they may/may not or can. Decisions are based on all variables and not based on 1 experience.

Now, knowing when to stop is a different reason if it persists. And I know how to do that well. So like I said we shall see.

 

This is a tough one to answer without actually meeting him. I disagree with the others in that I think he may see things on a different level. Is he a deep thinker???

As an African-American man, I sort of see his point. There are African-American people (both male and female) that are less comfortable dealing with those of their own ethnicity. Some of us have internalized the old stereotypes about ourselves (untrustworthy being one of them) even as history has proven us to be a lot more honest than our accusers.

A lot of white people (in the past) called us everything in the book. But before we even came in contact with whites, the Chinese and East Indians found us to be their best and most trustworthy trading partner. For a lot of "black" Americans, what I wrote is meaningless cause they don't know their history. For them, everything begins on some slave plantation in the south.

And, that may be what your guy is afraid of: He might think that you've internalized the stereotypes about African-American men (that stem from the lies of the worst bigots) and were more guarded in your dealings with them. And to be honest, if you were, I cannot sit in judgment of you as there are a ton of AMERICAN black people that are MUCH, MUCH tougher on other black people (as opposed to others) in just about every way (at the store, in the courtroom, when stopped by some black police officers, etc, etc, and, OF COURSE, in relationships).

If he's well traveled, he may even be aware of this. He may want someone that is proud and honored to be African-American; someone that sees that we are among the greatest people on Earth (judging by how far we've come, how we've overcome impossible odds to be as important as we were before we were dragged here).

If he has seen much of the world, then he knows that people admire us in some places. The Irish (that live in Ireland) love how we fought for our rights.

But, I don't know him. He might even be an idiot. He may only want to know who you've dated for the dumbest reasons. He may only see the world in "black and white"....OR, he might want someone that is as open minded as he could be from all of his travels.

ARE YOU POSITIVELY SURE THAT OUR INSANE AMERICAN STEREOTYPES DID NOT AFFECT YOUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH BLACK MEN? - (This could be his question).

Even I, someone that can tell you the Chinese leader that traded with my ancestors, has to fight the BS stereotypes I learned in grade school.

 

My first answer would be what business is it of his who you sleep with? Previously or in the future. And, what if there is a pattern? If you prefer to sleep with WM, then so be it...If it's just a coincidence...then Ok. If he has a problem with it, that's his problem, not yours. Only you know in your heart why you slept with those seven and not the other 18 or whatever it is. If there is a pattern, and you're not admitting it to yourself, then it's still something you have to deal with and it's still something that's none of his business.

 

That's the statement I was most concerned with. What does that say about a man if he resorts to those tactics?

 

That's my point. It just wouldn't sit right with me if a guy I've known for a year suddenly started acting like that over one little thing. If one thing can cause a guy to act so irrational then to me that just seems like someone I don't want to waste my time on.

 

I love the way you put this Bronze Saint and I can clearly see your point of you, even though you are so far off the mark in regards to how I think and feel.

African American people have really been put through the ringer and we have the history of books, the education in school and of the world and the documents to prove it. I am proud of who I am, where I came from and where I am going. If I wasn't I would never have even attempted to be with another African American on any level of intimacy. Sterotypes are for the ignorant, shallow and small minded people. I believe I am so much greater than that, but I do see how many WM,WW,BM,BW can use it as a form of conforming to society and create unnessessary hang ups.

As I stated, I am asking for complete honesty from a variety of people who do not know me and inorder to obtain the honesty of people and their views as they see it, one must be completely honest with All the information they put out there. So you have it all. I gave the information so you would read it as it is and not view it and see that there were underlying issues or alternatives on my part to sway you either way. I wanted you to be aware of all the variables and not just some. It is what it is no more or no less.

I feel that most people are doubters, that is not an open mind, that to me is a person that requires the truth over time because experience has taught them not to trust and believe what is infront of them. Guilty until proven innocent right? And then you have the others...Innocent until proven guilty.

Your comment was very insightful though...and yes he is a deep thinker. I agree, that it can be quite difficult to answer when you dont know the parties involved and how they think, act, react etc. Knowing a person gives so much more to the big picture but this is what we have....All the information. I can not provide more if it is not there, but I can ask others for the insight and opinions based only on what is given.

 

I understand your thinking also, but for me 1 act of irrational behaviour does not make up the whole person. Ofcourse it doesn't sit well with me either thats why i am trying to see other points of view.

People are people and human and ofcourse make mistakes based on their experiences then ofcourse can or can not learn from them. I feel you give people a chance depending on the severity of the situation ofcourse, what you can handle or not....but continuing to see the red flags time and time again pop up is sheer idiocy

 

Good response!

You know....it could be something that he's simply overlooking and that you are slightly aware of: It could just be your own preference for Caucasian men! You may be attracted to ALL men, but more romantically inclined to certain guys!

There's no sin in this (if that's what it is).

There is a certain type of woman that I'm always attracted to: Slim, stylish in dress, extremely feminine; you can hear the heels of her shoes when she walks.

It'll be a woman that looks like Tiger Woods' wife in January. Then, it'll be a Lucy Liu lookalike in February. In March, it'll be someone that looks like Beyonce and Eva Longoria in April.

But, to be COMPLETELY honest, skinny blonde ladies do it for me everytime. Certain Asian ladies are so completely polar opposite of me that I sometimes lose it around them.

I love Latinas and African-American women and have dated them. And I would defend a Black woman like crazy and help her in her career as often as possible.

But, God plays tricks on us!!! He does not make things simple. Which is why your attraction may be leading you one way and my attraction somewhere else.

I'm glad to see the pride you have in your ethnic heritage. It makes you whole. It also allows you to recognize your very important place in the world in much the same way the Obamas do.

Likewise, it allows you to venture out into the world, date who you want, and enjoy every culture (that is not backwards, bigoted or too religious).

Your guy should be able to understand someone's preference. If he's as good as you think he is, he'll get over your dating past (LOL!!!).

It's truly funny that there are very many white ladies that will EXCLUSIVELY date African-American men and will catch less flack than you have from their lovers. In fact, while my current lady (she's German) does not date black men alone, she has dated two black men in her past...I don't care...she's mine now and we're a good fit.

I guess the good news for you is that this "black - white" dating silliness will become far less important in the upcoming years.

The economic and political changes will trump every other concern starting in 2009, even for your guy.

Good luck to you! You seem bright.

 

Your response Bronze Saint...Good response!

You know....it could be something that he's simply overlooking and that you are slightly aware of: It could just be your own preference for Caucasian men! You may be attracted to ALL men, but more romantically inclined to certain guys!


Like I said.... I LOVE ALL MEN period!!!!I do have certain preferences you are right, but they do not in any way consist of skin color and that's my point. Remember I have been intimate with other men of a different color,race or creed.

Thank you so much for your views...it is very important to me to continue learning and EVOLVING in life even if my views are different from someone elses.

 

I would take issue with his reaction to your answers. I would also take issue with some of the questioning. I'm about as open as it gets, but I don't know that I would answer such things. My point here is - what benefit would it have been to ask and/or answer such questions? I would be more interested in why he feels the need to know such information. It seems like a set up for failure. I have to wonder what answers he would have been ok with.

I can understand (to some extent) his concerns about whether or not you had specific issues in regards to race. However, I would think after knowing you a year he would already have a good feel for how you are.

I always find it fascinating that there are those who have so many concerns about who people were intimate with in the past. Anything and everything that happened prior to our meeting them, or to the point we are at right now brought us to where we are. So even, if in fact it were true that you had certain patterns or issues in the past....those things got you to where you are at this given moment...having these conversations with him and entertaining whatever type of relationship with him that you are. I can understand having conversations to get the overall feel but when people start wanting to know all sorts of specifics about who you did what with and how many.....that's getting a bit off for me. I just haven't seen where anything positive comes from those types of exchanges.

I think I would have a conversation with him about all of this and explain the concerns that you now have about him.

I'm someone who has exclusively dated black men for some time. It doesn't mean that I'm not ever attracted to other men. I've dated and/or had relationships with other men. It's possible that I might in the future. It just happens to be that I prefer black men. And because at one point in life I was married to a white man and now I date black men does not mean I have any issues about either. It simply means that it went that way. Somehow I think your friend might take issue your past was somewhat like mine also.

Here's the thing with all of this...it's really ok to discriminate when it comes to personal private relationships. I think so many of us go around defending things and trying to be PC about it all. But it's our lives and we are the ones who are sleeping with whoever we are, living with whoever we are. Ourself and whoever it is that we are in a relationship with are the only people that need to be concerned with whatever we are doing. Of course we discriminate....about all sorts of things....SO WHAT! And maybe someone can twist that into being some sort of negative and about "patterns" and so on. Come on - I would guess that you might have a "pattern" of being with intelligent, men of character....does this man take issue with that? Geeze...you said you LOVE A GOOD MAN....you know...that means you have ISSUES towards men who are not good men....uhoh maybe you need to work on that too! Give me a break (ok I know I got a bit sarcastic...but really....it's like some people go looking for problems!)

Sounds like more HIS issues than yours.

 

Unfair or not, we have to face reailty: men ARE concerned with who's been in there before them. If they won't verbalize the concerns, that just shows better manners. But they want to know they're getting a quality woman, and to them the prior history is important. The smart approach is don't ask, don't tell. I won't ask a man who he's been with, it's none of my business, as long as I have an idea of his relationship history. I expect the same. If a man is twice divorced, it's more of a red flag to me than the number of partners. It's the big picture that counts.