I understand your position however, on this we will never agree. Yes to your questions based on point of view and who cares how or why sexual organs developed and who cares if they are used for procreation or for pleasure only, that isn't good enough? Either way debating this is a moot point b/c we both are too entrenched in our opinion to have any effect.

By Wyatt (207.106.60.177) on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 12:34 pm:

Ishavara,

So you are saying that a group of men tie go into a country, steal men and women and push them into slavery, because they deem it is right, then it is because they say it is?

Are you saying that a group of men come to a continent inhabited with millions of people, who perhaps don't look like them or speak their language, they then have all the right to wipe them from the face of the earth because they beleive they have a right to?

Are you saying that we can discriminate, control, murder, rape, enslave, torture whomever we chose because, well we think that we are better and we are right so we can?

This is called cultural relativism and although it has happened throughout our history and the history of the world doesn't make it right. This country has been based on racism and diecrimination of blacks, women, poeple of color and even children. It was the people with Moral integrity and imperatives to say "Racism is wrong, sexism is wrong, even homophobia is wrong". but that doesn't mean that if black on black crime happens or women discriminate against other womrn or the behavior of gay lifestyle is not correct behavior that we don't call it out. Relativism opens the door for every little thing to seep in and cloud what is right and wrong.

It was cultural relativism which created the idea that Interracial marriage was immoral. But it was a construct created to keep the races apart. We don't have use religion, we use the scientific fact that we two different types of humans women and men and that our sexual organs evolved to perform to give pleasure, but most importantly to procreate. This is not the purpose of gay sexual behavior, it is for pleasure only. And this is not a biologically clear area, sure, but it doesn't take rocket science to understand the logical issues here. But you have a right to believe as you wish and I will fight for your right. I also have the right to clearly know right from wrong and say accordingly, love the person, but don't accept bad behavior.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.111) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 03:54 pm:

I have a problem with who is dictating what is immoral behavior, according to who? To me right and wrong is relative. I can give numerous examples regarding right and wrong as being relative. When colonialist came, the people's culture and religion that were already there were deemed wrong and the colonists way of life as right. To the majority of Germans during the Nazi's time saw their view as right, to them it was. If someone murders their childs molester to them and many others the murder is right. Many cultures all through written history owned slaves of all nationalities, to them slavery as an institution was right. Gay people are not wrong to me in loving someone of the same sex nor do I think it is some kind of behavioral problem. What is the problem when someone finds love with whoever? It is hard enough to find love as it is, why begrudge them their innerselves? Do you know what it feels like to be gay? Do you think they have some kind of choice? So many people think IR relationship are wrong, does that make it so? There is no disputing these points of view b/c it is all based on opinion so therefore I beleive it to be relative. There exists no rules for right and wrong, it is based on the majority of society's view on any given subject. Right and wrong varies drastically dependant on where you are on this earth. Sure many are common held beleifs the world over but that doesn't make these beliefs right or the truth.

By Wyatt (207.8.207.59) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 02:35 pm:

Well, I don't believe that right and wrong are at all relative. Is it relative with murder, is it relative with hate? Do we think slavery was a wrong or was it, relatively speaking, just wrong to those negroes who accidently got caught? Do we think the butchering of 6 million Jews is relative or was it wrong? The last time I heard, it was an immoral act of hatred and horror. Why aren't we relative about these things? Because we know they are not correct behavior, even if a minority, (gays, nazis, etc) think so. Now with that, do we treat them as criminals or hate them? Absolutely not, we love them and work on their behavior. It is a behavioral problem, not that they are bad people, but that it is bad behavior. You may choose to think that it is relative, but so do white supremacists when they hate jews and people of color. They think what they do is as natural as drinking a glass of water or waking up in the morning. But because they believe so doesn't mean that it is right. so relativity is a nice excuse for covering up for the immoral behavior but it is still wrong behavior.

By Ishvara (38.163.112.111) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 12:27 pm:

"Also our acceptance, tolerance of gay and lesbian behavior and union has created a contradictory notion of what is right and wrong, leading young men to see every thing in a dominance and sexual perspective." Please explain! rightness and wrongness is completely relative.

By Wyatt (207.8.207.59) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:44 am:

Roberto,

This trend is probably a backlash to the way the men became so feminized in the late 80's, early 90's. I think that alot of men were feeling as if they were losing any semblance of malehood in order to buy the crap which is political correctness. We see those movies you describe, then a backlash of media people like Bill Maher, Howard Stern and a host of others. We also witnessed the contradictions in liberal politicians as they take advantage of their position and muddle the feminist perspective they claim to support, all the while coopting the real feminist movement of working women and men.

It is also a view of mine, that the absense of male figures in the home do to liberal social agenda of gay rights, shacking up, marriage penalties, uprooting of the religious institutions, welfare handouts and the overall breakdown of the family unit has caused these young boys to seek out masculine models to show them how to be a man. It is a false model but to them it is the best that they can devise, especially in their adolescent minds,which today extends well into ones twenties. Television has poisoned the minds of an entire generation with sexist, masogynistic video which degrade women; sport with more emphasis on money and male showing off than any real sportsmanship and thus it is perceived as a true male behavior Also our acceptance, tolerance of gay and lesbian behavior and union has created a contradictory notion of what is right and wrong, leading young men to see every thing in a dominance and sexual perspective.
There is nothing wrong with sensitive males, males who don't pump iron, gyrate on ball fields, objectify women or not driven by hyper materialism, anti-relgious fanatasism. Their are real men who make great role models for our children, who are not ruled by violence, their sexual organs or stupified by gross markets. Men like Ralph Nader, Colin Powell, Cornel West, who break the stereotypes of weak men or macho(yet ultra feminized men). These men use their minds, personalities and sportmanlike gentility to lead people, not to a naked, new age drumming session in the woods, or a rap video with scantily clad women talking about abusing, killing or objectifying women, or whining liberal behaviors of losing an election, game or deal. There are men who are true rebels in every since of the word and they are the only real male models. religious men, military men, grasssroots stalwarts of real social justice, men with real jobs, family responsibilities and not walking with feminized telephones strapped to their belts.
(Remember when only women talked on phones for hours?) We have become so feminized, no wonder young men are crying out for masculine role models. What examples will we give them, virtual or reality?

By Ishvara (38.163.112.111) on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 11:19 am:

Well I know for me I like all the "male" qualities in my honey, those are some of the things that really attract me to him. I just have an issue with weak being synominous with femine. I think the best bet is for both sexes to balance and blend manly and womanly traits. As far as white men go I tend to think they want to retain their power and social status so that kind of attitude goes hand in hand with that desire and compared with other cultures "their women" have more power, personal and otherwise. So perhaps that is a backlash agianst female empowerment, they feel threatened and want to be seen as "strong warrior men".

By Roberto (205.188.193.32) on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 10:47 pm:

I notice a trend among many males, especially white males for the reverence of the "true masculine male of old". Since there is a theory in human studies that men go to war and are aggressive to attract the female of the species, I see a hunger among many males for the "boys to be boys" and the "men to be men", and not for the "feminine males" as typified in the gays, the whiners, and the so-called sensitive men. I hear a lot of men refer to themselves as "Attilia the Hun or Attilia the True Male". We know from the recent T.V. series of the warrior man (Attilia) of ancient Rome who conquered lands, had a harem of women, and killed off his competitors, many men today feel that women want this strong male and not the weak male. They see America as becoming weak and feminized. When we see the popularity of such movies as "Gladiator" and "Croaching Tiger and Hidden Dragon" of ancient warriors, there is a great hunger for the "manly man" or "heroic woman". Are we seeing a trend of what a true man should be? or a new movement to what that new man will become? Where are the "Promise Keepers" when you need them? ~ Roberto