I don't see why the idea that some groups exhibit certain patterns of behavior should be such a big deal. Let's step outside the US for a moment - if I asked you to describe the typical Frenchman and the typical Japanese person, what would you say? We might say that the French guy has an attitude, smokes a lot, and becomes passionate about the issues of the day. For the Japanese, we might say they are exceedingly polite, curious, and seeks consensus rather than confrontation. If we can make those observations about non-Americans, why not aim that towards ourselves?

This strikes me as particularly odd considering how prominent "diversity training" has become at many companies. You sit in a room, and are asked to treat people differently based on their ethnic group. You're told that whites think in a certain way, blacks in a certain way, Hispanics, etc. Personally, I do find that level of indoctrination annoying. I'd rather form judgments about people based on my personal interactions with them, not what some "diversity trainer" tells me

By Ishvara (208.37.110.61) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 09:42 am:

Frangiapani, I know you must be getting tired of defending your point of view and although I don't necessarily agree with the way you are presenting your feelings, I don't think you are some sort of bad racist person. Yes there are differences between bm and wm, not always in speech, I think it can be cultural and enviromental, when the whole world treats you a particular way, you to a certain extent develop mechanism, defenses, and modes of behavior in order to be at peace in that world. Bm perceptions on this world obviously differ in many areas than a wm. Now if you are talking about speech and that is why you say that Bryant Gumble acts white I need clarification. If it is his mannerisms, I don't know how you could make an accurate judgement based on his tv appearences, he could be totally different outside of work. And what mannerism belong to what group?

Maybe it is attitude, I really don't know but like I said I don't think you are some sort of pariah. I have had bm tell me I don't act like a white girl, it isn't my speech, I speak with slang sometimes or the Queens proper english usually. Nor do I dress in the hip-hop style neccessarily. After a few times I asked what was meant by the statement, they couldn't define it and when pressed I got something to the effect, you look in my eyes when we talk, do not seem to fear me or act nervous, and I don't know girl, you got flavor.

So I guess what I'm saying is that there are two sides to this coin. I am confused when I hear the sentiment you don't act white, I certainly don't act like those ww wanting to "be black" as in thug hip-hop type of expressing oneself so exactly what it is still mystifies me.

By Ishvara (208.37.110.61) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 09:28 am:

Boxerguy I liked what you had to say too, it illuminates another side of the issues and brought up many strong valid points however; I sincerely hope the term snowbunnies was used to make some sort of obscure point that I'm not picking up on because I heartily dislike, snowbunny, snowflake, fluff and all the other demeaning names I have heard to describe the color of my skin, my outward persons, it's real tiresome.

Oh yeah and I loved the Nephew, I really liked how they portryayed the lead character.

By Frangiapani (139.134.88.71) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 05:24 am:

Just to make it clear, I never said anything about "too white".

I was just stating that you would have to be blind not to see a difference. Its impossible that all black men are going to act alike, but no one can tell me there isnt a difference!!!! black and white men arent alike, one acts white and one acts black, not all, but most. Thats the way it is. That is why I like black men. That is why I dont like al men alike and that swhy people are on this website because they arent interested in all women, no, they are interseted in white women, because white women have differences from black women. Not just because of the way they look, because most white women think and act alike. I guess that is what is meant by acting white. Its not about acting too white, its not wrong to be who you are. But face it, if you arent acting like most of your race you are going to be put aside and labeled.
Bryant Gumbel acts white. He does and its plain to see that, theres nothing wrong with it but Im not attracted to it. I feel racist saying that, but if I didnt like 'black men' for a reason then what would I be doing here in the first place?.Anwyay,I think Ive made my point...

By Kngdavid (150.201.25.178) on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 01:31 am:

Boxerguy,

I stand by my previous statements. While I think that black culture encourages self-destruction, that certainly is not the totality of it.
However, it's just not realistic to claim that criminal behaviour and disdain for education have not become part of black culture. I saw it every day when I was growing up; the other black people soon became very predictable: Total strangers who I had never met before decided to hate me because my GPA was too high. They dressed and talked alike, and later on, they always voted exactly the same way, regardless of who's running or what any issue is. It became rather tiresome.
But I should qualify that; only 90% of them fell into this category. I think there were a few dissidents, but they were too intimidated to reveal themselves.

"The
Death Row Tupac Puff Daddy Master P. Ruff Ryder nonsense is nothing more than
vulgar ignorance marketed to the masses due to personal greed and corporate
profit."
Oh yes, I agree heartily. The problem is that it wouldn't exist at all if black people didn't buy it. If Black youth didn't seek to emulate such behaviours in their personal lives the greedy corporations wouldn't make a profit this way.
There can be little doubt that black people EXPECT profanity and explicit vulgarity in their music and movies. (How many PG movies can you think of written by blacks? How many R's?") It just doesn't make sense to deny what we've become. (The Advertisers certainly don't!) Yes, I'm sure there are exceptions; I speak only of that previous 90%.
And whether or not you or I believe the prejudices of white, middle-aged parents are justified, the constant sight of so many black men embroiled in violent crime will most certainly influence their thinking.
I'm well aware of the vice that exists within elements of the white population, but there does not exist this monolithic fixation with any ideas or attitudes within the white population; the best and worst are found among them. When I meet a new white person, I can never be completely sure what to expect; with my own "race", I'm very rarely surprised. And as for Europe, well it's a whole different animal.

"Black people, like all other people, don’t raise their children to be unintellectual,
promiscuous and criminal. Black mothers aren’t telling their daughters to go out and
get pregnant. Black fathers aren’t telling their sons to put down the books and go
out and sell rock cocaine on the street corners."

Again, I certainly agree, and this touches on another facet of the dillemma: If indeed there was a Black mother *AND* a black father in most households, the very vices you describe would most likely diminish drastically. But this is largely the artifact of the welfare state. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
But what can really be done? To clarify, I'm certainly not relying on Jesse Jackson to save ME. To be honest, I thoroughly disdain his behaviour. The problem is this: Who else has enough influence? Who else do black people listen to? They certainly wouldn't listen to someone like me. Who else? Clarence Thomas? I think not.
The reality is that someone in his position could make great strides forward towards the betterment of blacks; The choices that the Rev. Jackson has made frankly cause me to question his motivations, but that's just me.
A more long-term solution in my mind is the (hopefully) inevitable blending of our society to a greater extent. Certainly, black isolationism must end. We really are all in this together; though some of us might dream wistfully of Black Nationalism, it just won't happen. My fate cannot be divorced entirely from the fates of Ishvara, Sheri, Aarm, or Boxerguy. We stand or fall together as a country.
In closing, I should also clarify that in case any SWF's were reading this lengthy diatribe, I am definitely in between snow bunnies.

By Boxerguy (199.179.160.30) on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 05:09 pm:

Kngdavid,

Quote form Kngdavid:

“In its current form, black culture helps no one, while it provides a sense of belonging and stability, it discourages self-actualization by its design.”

What kind of racist crap is this? You sound like William Shockley. I’ve read your posts and I’m annoyed by your characterization of black culture.

As a one time bookworm turned jock, I can sympathize with your feelings of rejection by young black girls who would rather spend time with a hype thug than a studious well-mannered young man. But, the prejudice of IR fearing white parents isn’t justified due to the negative behavior displayed by some black people.

Ignorance, immorality and lack of personal discipline aren’t characteristics of black culture. Anyone who thinks they are is either racist or prejudiced.

Culture ( defined as the customs, skills, arts of a given people in a specific time period )

Black people, like all other people, don’t raise their children to be unintellectual, promiscuous and criminal. Black mothers aren’t telling their daughters to go out and get pregnant. Black fathers aren’t telling their sons to put down the books and go out and sell rock cocaine on the street corners. Even in the most poor black desperate ghettos of America, the black inhabitants have the same white picket fence aspirations that white upper-middle class suburban parents have for their children. The inability of many African-Americans to achieve their goals is mainly due to their circumstances and, sadly in all too many cases, their individual negative behavior.

In small towns far away from black folks, young white girls emulate Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears in their sexy behavior and clothing. Many of them curse and swear and engage in dangerous sexual and drug related behavior because they think it’s adultlike. Young white boys love the vile lyrics of Limp Bizkit and Eminem and don’t give a damn what black people think them. Rates of illegitimacy in Northern Europe rival that which exists in the African-American community. I haven’t heard any stories about Negroes pulling down “white culture” in the Netherlands. White people in America and the rest of the world have social problems too.

Hip hop may be characterized as a part of black culture, but hip hop and rap music are not vulgar and aren't inherently unintellectual. R. Kelly’s choice to boost his cd sales by using sexually laced profanity has nothing to do with him being black. The Death Row Tupac Puff Daddy Master P. Ruff Ryder nonsense is nothing more than vulgar ignorance marketed to the masses due to personal greed and corporate profit. The trashy music gets airplay because it makes a few people a lot of money. I think the young Afro-American/Irish character in the movie, The Nephew is a better example of a young black male practicing black culture today than the cartoon characters we see in music videos and crime reports. I think you should rent the movie and pay close attention to difficulty he experienced when explaining his locked hair and baggy clothes to his Irish relatives. The young man in The Nephew practiced black culture without the social dysfunctions inappropriately associated with black behavior.

Reliance on Jesse Jackson, and those like him, to save Black folks is another fallacy. Jackson needs to save himself and go visit his young daughter in Los Angeles. His indiscretion, like Bill Clinton’s, had nothing to do with being black. Once again, personal irresponsibility and selfishness not black culture is at the root of his problem. Although most African-Americans are appalled at Jackson’s behavior, they shouldn’t be embarrassed because unlike the people at Operation PUSH, they didn’t elect him to office and they aren’t responsible for his stupidity.

The only black people who discourage education and personal responsibility are the extremely ignorant black people and, thank God, they are a small minority. Kngdavid, it was the protective, unifying and enriching aspects of black culture that allowed your black ancestors to survive horrible chattel slavery as a people. Don’t knock it, now that you have a little snow bunny to keep you warm at night. Keep writing, bro!

By Ishvara (208.37.111.157) on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 03:56 pm:

I like your perspective it seems to come from a place of great personal strength. Just to keep things real, I can't abide liars, I am not married...yet...

Anyone else have thoughts on this very real socio-economic problem and what requirements are needed to drastically change perceptions? I think Kngdavid does bring up very good aspects of the current situation, I do think educational success should be the marker, upheld and rigorously advertised.

By Kngdavid (150.201.2.65) on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 01:02 pm:

Ishvara,

When I say that "I'm one of those black men that Frangiapanni doesn't like, I'm referring to a comment she made about not liking any black men that "sound like Bryant Gumbel", because he is apparently, "too white".
And this underlying attitude really is at the root of the majority of social ills that afflict the black community. We have this universal perception that a black man must be aggressive, anti-intellectual, and either athletic if not criminal if he wants respect.
For those of you who are white, whatever your past experiences with blacks may have been like, whether favorable or not so, most certainly you would never have become the object of disdain that an educated black man is. While a white person may be rejected in the black community due to the perception that she is an outsider, a black man (or woman) that does not abide by the tenants of black culture actually becomes an enemy. And don't argue with me about this; it happens over, and over, and over again, but white people aren't exposed to it.
I'm well-spoken, have a good education, and am currently pursuing an advanced degree. And with some exceptions, anyone on this path becomes something of an "outlaw", far more so than if I had ever killed someone or robbed a liquor store.
Yet black leaders are always complaining constantly over the fact that black people in this country control less than 1% of America's wealth. (though that figure may be improving) What do you expect when children have to hide their good grades for fear of violence on the playground? I can certainly understand the perspective of Ishvara's husband.
But I know what Ishvara means; many black people really are afraid to defy the dominant culture, and that's true of most people in general, which is why the dominant culture IS the dominant culture.
In its current form, black culture helps no one, while it provides a sense of belonging and stability, it discourages self-actualization by its design. So we have a conflict between the desire to better one's self, and the knowledge that in doing so, you are at risk of losing your entire social network.
But there are ways to provide belonging and stability without condemning yourself to abject poverty. The asians certainly have no such problems, and there is no genetic evidence that they are naturally more intelligent at birth than anyone else.
But how can this state of affairs be amended? As I said earlier, most white people probably wouldn't believe that the black male lead in the movie is fundamentally less intelligent than the cute white girl; the problem is, HE may believe it. (I'm not sure, I haven't seen the movie) But after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow, there are a great many blacks that may not have confidence in their own abilities.
I think blacks in general will become disenchanted with their current existence of welfare-state inherited poverty if they truly believe that they are good enough and smart enough. (and that doesn't mean teaching inner-city kids that the pyramids were built by winged black africans)Aside from needing more men like Ishvara's husband, I think the task falls to the "Jesse Jackson's" and other black leaders to actively encourage education and applauding black academic success rather than defending criminals and demanding more and more welfare. What message does that give to youth? "Obviously, I must NEED all this welfare and affirmative action because I'm fundamentally inferior." Very few white people believe that, why should I?

By Ishvara (208.37.104.60) on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 10:29 am:

Kngdavid, "I have a lot of personal experience with this kind of social pressure. To be honest, I'm one of those black men that Frangiapanni doesn't like. I know what I'm talking about; but most white people might be slower to catch on because blacks probably will not exert peer pressure on them while growing up." Can you explain what you mean? I don't understand that part.

Generally, I think what you are saying is that many black people today refuse to take responsibility for their current situation, beliefs, and actions that many follow? My mate has no sympathy for many of his peers, he sees their situation as a personality defect, not having strength of character or strong will. He grew up in the same enviroment as many but made different choices. His attitude, if I did it then there is nothing stopping anyone else. We disagree on this subject, I think the surroundings are so depressing that it takes an exceptional person to overcome it leaving the average person locked in a vicious cycle with no support system. I know the answer lies with a change in mind set, I have no idea how a change like that would occur, do you have any thoughts, this is a subject I have thought about often, never coming up with any sort of solution, except that everyone would have to at once change their perception. How do you enable the ones that so desparately want that when everyone around them is seeing the negative in everything without striving for the positive?

By Ishvara (208.37.104.60) on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 10:09 am:

I was surprised because it was devoid of many stereotypical situations played out in movies. It did touch on some, his ex girlfriend, the sister, his friend, but these weren't the main focus. It was a fresh romance story which I loved. It focused more on the relationship aspect of two people rather than their color. At the start of the relationship there was no thought to color just two people being attracted and interested in eachother. Sure color came into the relationship as an issue but that wasn't the main theme, it just showed an issue like all couples have issues and how to work through it, be better for it, and have all info before making rash decisions. I thought her a bit selfish to just decide she wasn't what he needed without including him in on her thought processes but I suppose without that they wouldn't have had any drama. It was how these people supported and enabled eachother to be better, reach higher that really touched me. I haven't seen "Who's Coming to Dinner?" so I can't draw any sort of comparision, I will have to go rent that one today and see.

The movie also dealt with teenaged interraccial romance which I think is even more threatening for people (parents) because technically at that age they are still children. When it is adults in the movie I think it can be seen as more acceptable because they have complete say in what happens in their life. I didn't really like Jungle Fever, it irritated me, I can't say why now, it was a while ago when I saw it, perhaps I should watch it again and see how I feel. Another movie dealing with inter-racial love and life was "The Nephew" which I liked because it showed all the complexities to being of mixed race and searchinbg for self and roots as well as love.

And Quentin is a personal favorite of mine for the simple reason he likes to casually portray mixed couples as if it's no big thing, not worth a mention, which it's not, that helps tremendously for the simple fact that it's treated as a non issue part of everyday life, which it is. With more movies like that with mixed race couples and without making race a major theme, will slowly familiarize people with the sight so perhaps when the average person sees it on the street it won't strike them as being weird or different. And I agree a movie section would be great.

By Sendawulaman (64.12.102.53) on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

I'd just like to tell KNGDAVID that he's right and to keep telling it how it is.

By Kngdavid (150.201.17.178) on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 04:34 pm:

I may have to check out that movie sometime, but I think this discussion touches on only half of an extremely relevant problem. The Middle-Aged white parents that cringe with horror at the thought of who their daughter might bring home are not slavering racists or soulless fascists. I feel comfortable in asserting that the overwhelming majority of white Americans probably do not still believe that there exists some kind of "inferior" black gene that forces blacks to behave differently. I think that the majority realizes that all humans are born with the same fundamental potential.
We can become disgusted at racists if we wish, but racial tension can never be completely resolved by name-calling and accusatory demands. We have to understand what might motivate those that would disagree with us.
Personally, I'm very fond of many white people, and it becomes easy to comprehend the reluctance felt by parents that would seek to interfere with my quest to date their daughters. We can blame them as racists, but the painful fact is that their attitudes are not totally unjustified.
We all know that the black community experiences a higher rate of violent crime than nearly any other demographic, (though hispanics rival us in some areas) and the reason for this is not entirely poverty, nor is it entirely slavery. Almost all Americans can tell stories of "Rags-to-Riches" stories of success, and there were a great many freed slaves in the 1800's that rose to greatness. Both of these factors contribute to the social problems, but do not constitute the entirety of the situation.
The real problem is simply, black culture. No one really believes that blacks are naturally inferior, but there are many aspects of our culture that really are self-destructive. It's not universal, but as a generality there are more black people that will discourage education and personal responsibility than will support it. And I have a lot of personal experience with this kind of social pressure. To be honest, I'm one of those black men that Frangiapanni doesn't like. I know what I'm talking about; but most white people might be slower to catch on because blacks probably will not exert peer pressure on them while growing up.
It becomes a natural response to associate the black culture with criminal behaviour; and what parent wants that? If we are ever to become more unified as a country, we must acknowledge that the victims of racism for all these centuries are at least partially responsible for the current state of affairs.

By Sheri (66.12.20.194) on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 12:38 pm:

Oh, I would love to be apart of that movie topic, as I am ALWAYS looking for a good movie! Especially one with that topic as I am interested in how the relationship is portrayed. Great Idea!!

By Aarm (64.124.150.130) on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 12:06 pm:

Hey Ishvara, I am surprised you are surprised that the movie was "ever made". I have not seen the movie as yet but there are many other IR movies that have come before it. Just to name a few: "Jungle Fever", "Guess Who's Comming to Dinner (1967!)", "Othello (1995)" - although originally Shakespere; There is another one from the 1960s of 1970s that I cant seem to recall. Plus Quintin Tarrentino always seems to have some IR in all of his movies.

Perhaps we should start a IR Movie Club Discussion Topic? :^)

AARM

By Ishvara (208.37.106.80) on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 10:46 am:

I watched that movie over the weekend too, with one copy left by the time I got to the store! I watched it with amazement I couldn't believe that a movie with subject matter like that was ever even made. It was very odd watching the movie, I especially liked how they portrayed their relationship. The movie didn't make it out like some sort of bad creepy freak experience. I thought it very touching.

By Sheri (66.12.20.194) on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 10:04 am:

Greetings white people, black people, every color in between and every color outside of~

Thought I would check out the posts this morning and since no new posts were up over the weekend, thought I would share my views on Save the Last Dance with you, should you be interested.

First off, I went out over the weekend to rent the movie since I didn't see it in the theatre and while in the one and only video store in my town of an approximate population of maybe
15,000 (maybe a dozen of those people being black males and females) I was shocked to discover that the 5 dvds and at least 20 copies of the movie had all been rented! Not one copy in the store to rent.

It was an excellent movie and I intend to purchase a copy, however, I was amazed that a movie with that subject matter, interracial dating, had been rented out like that! It had me wondering how many middle aged white parents were watching this movie with their teenagers at home and how many were pissed about it and how many were thinking maybe that black kid that comes over with my daughter isn't so bad and maybe I should give him a chance. It had my hopes up anyway that parents were getting good vibes from the movie. Maybe most parents didn't realize what it was and started watching it knowing that had they known the subject matter, they wouldn't have given the movie a second thought, other than hoping that it wasn't giving their daughters anything to think about.

The movie touched every aspect of interracial dating, in my opinion at least. It was a touching, realistic movie that made you feel every emotion in dating someone outside of your own skin color ( I would saw race here, but we are all humans). Everything from the change in culture, dance, music, dress, parents, family, to the stares from strangers and the conflicts it can cause between your closest friends and that horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach when you shut the door in your man's face because your father is home but then you feel the passion and excitement from seeing the contrast not only in skin color but again from everything just mentioned above.

This movie made me feel good about myself and my decisions and hopefully it will do some good to those closed minds we all encounter daily! If you have not yet seen this movie, I highly recommend it. If anyone out there has conflicting opinions, I would like to know about them and your feelings.

Peace and happiness~
Sheri