Hi,
I'm new to this site but after reading what everyone has said on this topic I thought that I could be of some help. You see I have two grown children who are interracial (black & white) as well as one teenager still at home. I also have one grandchild who is interracial. For me the issues have been always of protecting my children against the discrimination that they may encounter and teaching them how to deal with it effectively so that they do not suffer. That is the job of the parent. To teach and protect. They have been very successful at it. They have grown up having true friends of all different races. The important thing to remember here is that there is always someone who has a problem with anything you do. Don't always look at the issue as a black/white thing. When dealing with someone who is ignorant, remember that they are the ignorant one. Cause guess what,they are everywhere, they come in all sizes, shapes and colors. Use the law to get the rights that so many have suffered to give to you. Ignore the stupid people. They all go away eventually (or just die off). Make it a point to show your children the best parts of both parents. They will see you for the loving, strong, nurturing parents that you are and not your race. My children do not view me as a white woman. They view me as their mother. They have my love and support always. I showed them at a young age how to stand up for their rights through my examples. It has always stayed with them. And Bravo for reporting that jerk to HR. That is the way to make a better world for the next generation. I hope I haven't bored those of you who where looking for a little more drama in this message, I am under the impression that this topic is as titled. Grow your children strong so that they reflect what is in your heart.

By Ishvara (208.37.110.105) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

Yes, I do think your thinking on this is correct. I shall be more diligent in monitoring what others are saying around me and report it immediately, instead of being "nice" and letting things slide. Sometimes I suppose it's much better to be overly strict than too lax. I am reporting him to the human resource department and have indicated that I expect a response, I suggested that they send him to a sensitivity/sexual awareness course, I also let them know the other comments he's made so if any other person has these same issue there will be some kind of record. All in all I think that it was a good lesson for me, I am still navigating these waters newly as a person in an IR and have been exposed to so much that I normally wouldn't have had to deal with that I need to develop a strategy and demeanor best suited in dealing with ignorance, at least on the job I have more avenues of recourse.

By Frangiapani (203.54.206.249) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 04:26 am:

Cma and I sometimes write by email and both of our first reactions was to quit the board. He isnt going anywhere and Im glad, because I enjoy reading his intelligent words.

By Spade (207.107.115.214) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 02:01 am:

Cma,

---

Quote:

Spade, by the craziness I'm speaking of, I'm not talking about the cursing and differences of opinion, I'm talking about people posting under different names and lying. I feel like an idiot having had serious conversations with someone that was taking us all for a fool, having no idea that one person was under different names. I could care less if people disagree, I am on African-American political forums that are basically non-stop, full throttle debate, this newsgroup is a walk in the park compared to some of the other forums. But it's lying and deception that irk me, not odd or differing opinions, when I don't even know if the person I'm talking to is putting up some fake alias or not. Besides the craziness, I like this newsgroup and some of the people I have met here, esp. Frangiapani who I really admire.

---

By Cma (216.249.81.86) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 11:36 pm:

Spade, by the craziness I'm speaking of, I'm not talking about the cursing and differences of opinion, I'm talking about people posting under different names and lying. I feel like an idiot having had serious conversations with someone that was taking us all for a fool, having no idea that one person was under different names. I could care less if people disagree, I am on African-American political forums that are basically non-stop, full throttle debate, this newsgroup is a walk in the park compared to some of the other forums. But it's lying and deception that irk me, not odd or differing opinions, when I don't even know if the person I'm talking to is putting up some fake alias or not. Besides the craziness, I like this newsgroup and some of the people I have met here, esp. Frangiapani who I really admire.

Fran,
You are 100% correct. I can think of few issues where "ignorance is bliss" applies so much than it does for IR. Even just a few years ago, before I thought much about BM/WF relations, I thought nothing of hanging out in the south with a white woman(as friends though). Even though I knew people had prejudice attitudes, I just didn't look for it. I can't even remember if people stared at us, because I never really paid any attention to people's reactions. I guess I was ignorant of the realties of BM/WF relations. These days, I notice every detail of how people react. You know what is really depressing? Is when you see someone you know and thought was cool giving IR couples a long look. I too think most people have some racism in them, even if it's very subtle. Sometimes I don't know if it's better to live in ignorance and be bliss, or be cognizant of social realities and vexed. I do wish at times that I could forget about all this racial bullshit and pretend it doesn't exist. It would be nice to be able to embrace or kiss a WF in public without people thinking you're attacking her or something.

By Spade (216.32.190.229) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 09:39 pm:

Frangiapani,

We know that human beings are not born racist. Racism is taught and conditioned through various factors during a person's life. It is certainly true that today many people are racist to some degree or another whether they admit it or not. And yet there are those that are not.

It is admirable for you to try see people as individuals as opposed to giving them a label of race however as you well know many people like to live the labels that you would try to look past. Nearly all people will at one time or another try to give the impression they are their own person but with just a little insight into their actions you can see otherwise. It has been my experience that plenty of people throw their individuality aside to be apart of the herd and fit in. This is where labeling and racism picks up momentum. Still, you would do well to do as you have stated and just see people as people regardless if their actions suggest otherwise.

By Spade (216.86.143.21) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 09:27 pm:

Ishvara,

You have every right to be enraged with what occured. Remember though you must always maintain control of self to the point that you do not let others manipulate your emotions for their own purpose. Once they find they can do so they will repeat the pattern again. In the business enviroment you must very stern with co-workers like those you are speaking about and let them know where you stand from the very beginning. You must often be critically firm because little by little they will test you to see how you react to certain phrases and comments to get a feel for how you would respond and act. And once they think they have a good bearing on your personality they will do and not do certain things.

By Frangiapani (139.134.88.169) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 11:27 am:

Ishvara,
Some people dont even think. They know just how to push buttons when they know your with a black man. I guess its a thrill some people have. They know it will make you mad and they like having that power trip. I get it all the time with my family, at least you have left certain people behind at your job and my parents have moved away, its just one less stressful thing.

By Frangiapani (139.134.88.169) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 11:10 am:

Spade, I agree with that. Do you think everyone is racist to a certain point anyway? I don't think anyone can be completely non racist. Yes,It is those little things we do that affect something like an IR relationship in the long run. When society is constantly drumming into our heads about what is right and what is wrong it can change the way we think.

I remember when I thought so simplisticly about dating a black man. To me, it was just man and woman. Slowly, but surely Ive learned alot from this site and about the different views certain U.S cities have on IR's. The kinds of stereotypes and games people play with each other, it has definetley made life harder and makes someone think twice about having an IR.

In a way, ignorance is bliss. I know its important to have learnt certain things when being in an IR, but Im starting to see all men of races as just being men and not labelling them anymore.

By Ishvara (208.37.111.91) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:57 am:

Well I hope this board continues it has helped me much with dealing with all the additional stresses that hound my relationship.

And as far as Spade's advice to CMA, completely on target and I have a topic in racial tensions making one feel "crazy", now forced to have all kinds of people treat me with no respect because I am now undeserving of it, a traitor. Anybody out there have any ideas how to handle a situation without going crazy about it? I don't know what action to take, can't let it go, and am retaining such negative feelings that are not in my nature to harbor. Usually almost nothing truly disturbs me, I understand that it is about my own perception to everything happening around me so usually I am content. However this, this what happened to me last Friday has me crazy.

Last day of work, saying goodbye to all my coworkers. As I am saying goodbye to this one particular guy, I go to shake his hand, he says here let's have a hug, I feel a little awkward but lean my upper body in anyway and attempt to give him a brief pat on the back. He puts his arm around me, pulls me closer and then cups my bottom and squeezed. I never not once encouraged or gave signals to this guy saying that would have been an appropriate action to take with me. I gasped, pulled back, initial reaction, struck him, and said something to the effect of what the hell do you think your doing. He laughed commented on how red my face was, right then another white male coworker comes up one I know better, kisses the air by my cheek, the beast says "Oh, he did it the classy way, I did it the ghetto way but then, that's what you're used to." Turned and walked away quickly. I am/was completely mortified and at a loss, nothing like that has ever happened to me before. He had such a complete lack of respect for me. He has eluded to me before about how I prefer bm, I never paid attention because he was loser and insignificant in my life. I never felt threatened by him, I did think it was very strange he wanted a goodbye hug, but figured I be polite, I never dreamed he'd dare touch me.

I'm sure he has that mentality, she'll date a black guy so she'll do anything or he's jealous and wishes he could have me. Things he's said in the distant past have come back, and I know he has an inadequecy problem based on these. Talks about how pretty I am but then I only like black guys, I remember that one.

I know the reasons intellectually but I feel so violated. He TOUCHED me, yuck! I am in a different state now and don't have to go back to that company again which is the most blantantly racists company I have ever worked for, the stories, and not just directed towards me, God help the only five non-white people in the office. I just need a different perspective on this or perhaps support and validation, all I know is that I can't stop thinking about it and all I would have done to avoid it had I only know.

By Spade (209.221.197.11) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 08:34 am:

Cma,

Thank you for the compliment but I'm just the moderator, the board and the site belong to the webmaster. And I agree that there were some issues here that got out of hand but those matters are finished. If you seek to leave then farewell. I believe that if you can't take the heat then you should get out the kitchen and that is certainly reflective to interracial relationships. People who get involved in IR have to endure some rather crazy circumstances at times (as do we all regardless of race) and while you may hear ones talk the talk many can't handle it. They end up throwing up their hands and saying "I quit!" It is at those times you see the ones that are just putting on a show and the ones that truly mean business. If, in the future, you got involved in a IR relationship and due to racial tensions things began to get "crazy," even more so then what you've seen here, would you turn to the woman you're involved with and say "I'm outta here, at least for a little while?" Would you run when things started getting tough just like many men before you? If the answer is yes you don't need to be involved in IR's, you need to do some soul searching. I'm not trying to insult you but rather show you how correlated everything is in the grand scheme of things. How the small things we do connect to the large things we do creating an exchange of actions and events that mold the pattern of our lives.

By Cma (216.249.81.137) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 04:35 am:

This forum has gotten to crazy for me. I'm outta here, at least for awhile. Spade, thanks for creating such a forum, it's just too bad it got hijacked by people that didn't respect it.

Laterz...

By Spade (216.32.190.230) on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 12:49 am:

Anon2000,

Valid, like many online these days, likes to wear many different faces under many different names. Its quite silly to see her try to change races to fit her own agenda with her disdain for interracial unions of black men and white women. It is a shame actually. How can tommorow's youth grow up with role models of integrity and truth when we have so many adults willing to be liars and deceivers. This factor is especially important in interracial circles where the controversy and stress is already great.

By Anon2000 (208.187.245.83) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

Spade,
this is off topic, but i just had to comment on it...i went to the yahoo ir board you have posted as a link. much to my surprise (yeah right!), there is inVALID! what is she on this board, black or white? on askheartbeat.com (as GRACING), she's a ww sybil and on blackvoices (VALID), she's a bw sybil. for someone who hates IR so much, she is ALWAYS to be found on IR boards...isn't that something?! i will be joining you there soon *smile*

By Roberto (152.163.197.56) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 08:23 pm:

By Spade (210.236.252.231) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 12:38 pm:

By Roberto (205.188.195.24) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 11:33 am:

To all the members of this site:

I make this admission to all of you. What Spade has said is true. I was those other identities he mention, except one, but that does not matter. What I did was not result of some personality disorder that he and others have thought. It was my attempt to get people to talk about issues that they normally would not do so if it involved someone that they may have grown comfortable with like my initial identities (Tyrone, and then Roberto) when I came on line back in April last year.

No, I'm not a hispanic black, let me clear that up right now. I'm sorry for some of the deception, but I will only say this to the webmaster. In a way I wanted to jazz up your site by creating controversy. I wanted to draw more people here for you. When I started here last April, there was little activity at the time. No one wanted to talk subjects that begged debate and discussion. It was not my original intent to stay here as long as I did. If you recall my son at the time was doing a research project on interracial dating for his class (he was the researcher). I found this site at that time for him and got caught up with the debates with "Three Horsewomen" (the three black women) who were the insigators of trouble along with Mindstraight (my that seemed like a long time ago). When my son's project ended I stayed on as Roberto from Tyrone.

I was separated from my wife then and truly fell in love with LadyLily who kept me here. It was she who recognized my deception of what I was doing (and I know she told you Spade). I hold no grudges. Spade, I used "Maximus" to try to break the hold of a relationship that I knew was not going to go anywhere, because of the return of my wife. Also I wanted to take advantage to explore dark subjects that people are afraid to discuss and not lose the friends that I made here (that was my biggest mistake). Spade, give credit to Joe, it was he who also recognize what I was doing as well. And, I knew that you were aware of what I was doing, but kept quite. Again, I want to thank you for allowing me to spice things up here. I hope I did not hurt anyone other than my love who I found here LadyLily. I'm sorry LadyLily. To the members of WW/BM I beg your forgiveness for the deceptions. Before I leave, I ask that you all do one thing for me. Keep pushing the boundaries on this issue of interracial relations. People in general in this society tend to be closed minded and do not want to discuss one of the greatest impact issues this country will ever face, especially as it becomes more diverse. We will either love each other as sisters and brothers or die together as fools. I bid you all farewell. ~ Tyrone, Roberto, and all the alias that followed.

By Ishvara (208.37.109.155) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 10:37 am:

That's a bit disconcerting, perhaps that's why I disagree with his thought process so often. It make me wonder that if you have that thought and proof, how many other people on this board is he? Either way it really matters not, as far as thoughts on the initial topic.

I have little doubt that my child will not come into this world and be a confident success despite the supposed obstacles. I am lucky enough to have complete support on both sides of the family, including aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. That matters some but what matters the most is the strength of he and I in character and the teaching of that to our child(ren). The nationalities/racial makeup of my child's family geneology is my child, they couldn't be themselves without this, that in itself is the beauty of their being. They need not be nothing more than themselves, and love comes unconditionally. Confidence breeds success. Intelligence, knowledge brings personal power. Acceptance begins with self.

I have strong convictions in thoughts like these and deeper and I chose my mate accordingly. I harbor no doubts that he will help me instill values such as those in our child(ren). Human beings come in multitudes of everything all over this planet. The fact that my child(ren) are bi-racial is nothing more than perhaps a slight advantage genetically because scientists say two strains mixed produces the best of the two strains :o)

By Roberto (64.12.105.54) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 10:15 am:

Spade:

You are right. The best thing is to just leave.
~ Roberto

By Spade (216.86.143.21) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 09:45 am:

Tell you what I'm going to do Roberto. It seems Kansascity must have gotten drunk or been on something and taken it out on you, her time here is up. In any case it still makes a perfect catalyst for me to get this mess about your multiple indentities on this board out in the open. But first things first;

By Spade (216.32.190.229) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 09:26 am:

Roberto,

Its one thing to have Kansascity ramble on about lord knows what but now you have the audacity to try to play the saint and say:

---

Quote:

Spade, if I'm a player of people here then banned me now. In fact I request that you ban me now. ~ Roberto

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By Roberto (205.188.195.37) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 08:25 am:

Kansascity:

It was not my attempt to insult you in anyway. I do not know what set you off. I just wanted to know how you think on certain sensitive topics that normally most do not want to discuss. I thought you were more open. I apologize if I hit a nerve with you. I'm not like anyone else here and neither are you. Spade, if I'm a player of people here then banned me now. In fact I request that you ban me now. ~ Roberto

By Spade (207.107.115.214) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 05:29 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.248) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 05:15 am:

By Spade (207.107.115.214) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:40 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.234) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:34 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.234) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:16 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.234) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:11 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.234) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:03 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.228) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 03:47 am:

By Kansascity (209.242.125.228) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 03:45 am:

By Roberto (152.163.195.194) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 01:14 am:

Kansascity:

You do not have to answewr the question about blacks being more racist than whites. I know the answer to that one. Instead, do you think that the intense bitterness that exist between black women and white women as it relates to the bi-racial or the "mulatto child" is a result of the painful historical and present memory that black women have of white women as being more priviledge than they (they have everything, now they are here to take our men) and the mixed race child as more of a painful memory of past historical rapes by white men and the hidden micegenation of race blending that many fear? ~ Roberto

By Roberto (205.188.195.58) on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 10:35 pm:

Kanasacity:

Explain somethings for me:

How do you instill in a child who is of mixed ancestry not to feel guilt or hate toward his parentage that is not looked on favorably?

How do you keep the child from developing self-hate toward his black side?

Do you think blacks are more racist than whites?

What do you mean that mixed race children in mixed race neighborhoods do not stay mixed for long?

For as far back as I can remember, when I was young there were white women who lived in black communities with mixed race children. In some situations they were living without men or in some cases were married or just living with a male friend. Some still stand out in my mind to this day. I remembered the hell some of these women received from black women and the torment some of their children received in school. What advice would you give future women who may find themselves in similar situations?

Note: By the way, we (my martial arts organization) is trying to contact that young man I mentioned (the mixed race child) who was being tormented to give him free instruction. We want him to be our poster child against "the bully". I will explain later.
~ Roberto

By Kansascity (209.242.125.198) on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 08:08 pm:

"America eats their young"!
I am dealing with all of these issues first hand and have been for alot longer than most of you on this board.
There is nothing we can do to stop bigotry, racism, ignorance on both sides of the line...mixed race children get caught in the crossfire all the time.
The parent who cannot handle these challenges usually leaves and one parent is left to raise their children alone.
As far as who gets the most respect...neither parent will as long as their children are exposed to hatred, identity crisis, and having to choose sides.
This having to choose sides is moreso enfluenced by peers...the majority of families have little clout in this regard.

When a couple wants to have children they better think long and hard about what is involved. Better to leave the country with your love and family intact!

If and when mixed couples stay in the USA to raise their families....and if they break up...it is usually the mother who raises those children. In the majority of black neighborhoods white women are not wanted but their husbands and children will be tolerated.
That is why many white women do not stay in black neighborhoods after a break-up to raise their children because of this backlash. Often their lives are threatened in these times..but, it wasn't always so.
It is foolish to stay and try to even deal with it. Better to take your children and leave. White or (mixed neighborhoods but they don't stay mixed for long-about 3 years) overall are much more accepting of women in this situation which has become very commonplace today.

A couple with means has a great advantage. They can marry, have children and move wherever they please. Then when their children are safely and properly raised and educated...without the interferences ...those young adults will be equipped (including learning of the martial arts and self-discipline) and have the other tools they need to not only survive but really have a life.
Better yet, the children of black/white race will NEVER have to choose sides because their parents were able to figure out how to stay together and keep it together. (even if it is not in this racist country).

By Roberto (64.12.105.158) on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 08:44 am:

Not long ago (last year), a mixed race couple, (black man and a white woman) had a cross burned on their lawn here in Virginia Beach. The ones who done this were two young white males (13 and 15 years old). It turned out that these kids knew the IR couple's son.

A few days ago the local television news program revisted the couple to see if conditions have changed and if they are being accepted by the families in their neighborhood. What they have found is that the couple's bi-racial son is continually targeted for harrassment by a local group of white tough's in his school. The white mother made the comment "I tried to prepare my child for what I knew was coming and what it will be like for him to be different".

The parents of mixed race children try to prepare their children about bigotry and racism while they are small for the mental and physical distress that they will experience. I sometimes wonder which parent of the mixed race union has the better influence over the bi-racial child in dealing with the hostility of being of a interracial union in which both parents are of two different caste groups. In the case of the white woman (who is the mother), will the child choose to identify with her, because of her race (more accepted) as a upper caste parent (based on skin color) or will the child show less respect to the black father as the lower caste parent.

It has been known in some circles that IR couple's fear the most in terms of how their child adjust to bigotry is not as much from external non-family, but from interfamily relationships. It is the grandparents, the cousins, the uncles and aunts.

For the bi-racial child to survive these conditions, does it not require the strength of both interracial parents? Must that child need to have an equal balance of respect for the racial social position of both parents? In the past it use to be that the family structure depended on the respect and parental dignity of both parents. Can this be true today?

Years ago, I remembered interracial parents (who were affluent) were so concerned about the problems of prejudice or hostility that their children would encounter in school (most likely place) that they sent them out of the country (England, or Canada in some cases) or to a private school. Is this still the case today?

It's too bad in this new century, some things seem will never change. Its the children who seems to suffer more being children than their parents being adults in a interracial unions. ~ Roberto